So about Summoner...

[TelosNox]

It's comes down to how you personally think things should be ballanced:

-ballanced around what average/below average players can do

Or

-ballance around the potential of what the job is capable of

Balance around what good/better players usually can do. For me 75th percentile is a good benchmark for balancing. It reflects what good players are able to do without being pushed, without having best in slot gear, without having the best luck with random mechanics without having (their) best group composition.
I would not balance for average (50th percentile) because this contains too many players that don't play the class right or fail too much at mechanics.

I think that's the reason why fflogs shows 75th percentile by default for statistics because it reflects what the class usually is able to achieve.

[Neela]

Verraise is useless in relation to necromancer though lol. And they need to increase the power of refresh potions for potd so other jobs can get through it as well, however even rdm has only seen two solo potds afaik.

Its really just potd and hoh that are affected and even then just for very niche achievements. Nothing else is really harmed.

never said verraise is related to necromancer... I said its just not enough to delete verraise to open up pot buffs for raiding - cause rdm than still have the pve advantage. about "nothing else is really harmed"... well that depends on personal priorities - those who don't play savage shouldn't suffer of cls-streamling design just because the 1% elite is unsatisfied with their speed-run options... : /

its the question in every mmo - should balance be based on endgame or on casual play? : o

[Dualgunner]

My issue isn't that RDM is behind summoner. That's part of it, but RDM's damage is on the same tier as bard's; square has stated they balance so more utility = less dps. Logically speaking then either RDM should have the same level of utility and damage support ad bard, or they consider verraise to be their support.

It's not the former so it must be the latter, however square is just flat wrong about spam raise being equivalent to the amount of support a bard can bring. First, summoner already brings all the raises a group should need--both in and out of prog, excepting bleeding edge prog. Second, that utility loses value very quickly over the tier.

Basically, my problem is RDM is one of the weakest dps for no real reason.

[Dualgunner]

My answer to that Neela is it should be balanced on high end content, because people playing at that end are the only ones who are going to run into issues like this. Zera said it beautifully earlier: every player can get better to get more out of their job, but system enforced caps can only be changed by the system.

[Neela]

Imo, I prefer having a job that is not "meta" and have fun with it rather than playing something I have less fun with. Savage raids can be cleared with any team composition, having a meta comp doesn't mean having more success. Our team had a WHM, DRK, RDM, SAM and MNK, so very little raid buffs, and cleared all Sigma savage just fine.

thats how our static plays as well - last savage tier we run 2x smn 2x drk and it was unproblematic. we are just casual/mid lvl but if people play what they like and have fun with, all that meta bullshit flies away. some people should just step back from this meta blah... as long as all cls actually "can" clear savage its not a real "balance-problem" its more a personal problem of people seeing their main cls in a worser spot than others. (and don't start bs like "said a smn" pls)

My answer to that Neela is it should be balanced on high end content, because people playing at that end are the only ones who are going to run into issues like this. Zera said it beautifully earlier: every player can get better to get more out of their job, but system enforced caps can only be changed by the system.

well I'm not with u at this point... f.e. why should pve player take the loss of raise or a weaker heal on rdm just because raider want them more viable for there reasons... - see the problem with thinking like that? every cls-adjustments for raiding will effect pve as well. sad that elite-raiders seem to forget that from time to time... q.q

we discussed that matter more than once in discord... actually if u want balance in savage, the cls' need a savage-profil just like the pvp-profils - less skills more balance... easier to adjust single skills faster with hot fixes... but well more streamline and more boredom as well...

its the only way to separate savage from casual content in matter of balance : /

Else there will always be top tier cls and "haha what do YOU want here" cls... no matter how hard they try balancing in general.

[Dualgunner]

Obviously on some level you do care, Neela; otherwise you wouldn't frequent threads in the caster wars defending summoner. It matters on some visceral level that summoner be performing well in raid, otherwise you wouldn't bring up Summoner's past difficulties in raiding, and you don't want to go back to what that was.

It's that level of care that people like Zerathor and I also have. We obviously play what we want over summoner, however we do so knowing we're holding the group back by not playing summoner instead. By a not so insignificant margin.

[Dualgunner]

You're acting like raiding isn't pve when that's all raiding is. You can say "There are things outside savage" all you like but most if not all of it is savage toned down by a lot.

[Neela]

Obviously on some level you do care, Neela; otherwise you wouldn't frequent threads in the caster wars defending summoner. It matters on some visceral level that summoner be performing well in raid, otherwise you wouldn't bring up Summoner's past difficulties in raiding, and you don't want to go back to what that was.

It's that level of care that people like Zerathor and I also have. We obviously play what we want over summoner, however we do so knowing we're holding the group back by not playing summoner instead. By a not so insignificant margin.

well and thats one of your mistakes - u think I'm just pro smn whats not the case, I play heal and brd as well from time to time - tho this is not "I'm smn and all the others can suck my balls" mentality. also its not me who always bring that smn vs. xyz back on the table if I say something general to raiding. my very first comment in this thread was kinda neutral - but just because my profile says I'm smn Zera began to strike on that, what actually was totally unrelated to:

"nerf xyz cause its stronger than my cls"

needs to die at first - cause thats what it is all about - in every "meta" topic ever since... /thread

a general opinion about raiding and one which has nothing to do with the op-ness of smns or other specific cls'.


But im not gonna lie: on the other hand at this state yeah I'm happy to be smn cause we perform good and finally have fun in savage too. whoop whoop. :3 - (thats why I said finally & mentioned the past thats all.)

but I was happy in arr & hw as well and I will stick to smn in 5.0 as well even if we are back to bottom like we were used to be. I don't chose my main based on fflogs performance or raidspots. I play smn cause I like pet cls in mmos. switching mains to perform "best" is just another personal problem of people who can't stand mid or bottom. but often the things those people complain about are actually not that important/relevant in an objective point of view - f.e. "good blm do high dmg, can clear all savage tier and even ultimate" this is true no doubt around it everything else in this thread is personal ego driven - easy like that.

if people always want to be on top - there is no way around switching cls from tier to tier - easy like that again... : /

and whats the matter with "holding back the grp" if you play with your static & friends? another argument which lose weight somehow... oh pf I see... yeah pf... if someone goes savage via pf the whole speedkill/meta/raidbuffs talk is obsolete... so why exactly do u have a bad feeling "holding your grp back" by playing what you personal like most? : /

[Dualgunner]

Was nice talking to you for a while Neela. You managed to hold a small conversation before the rampant strawmanning began.

[Zerathor]

snip.

It's a pretty bad feeling to hold back your group for your own benefit of enjoying a certain job. Be it a casual static group, a hard core prog group, a speed kill group, or even a pf group.

Knowing it was YOUR choice that may have caused that wipe at 1% enrage because somebody was dead 10 seconds longer than they should have or various other situations like that. It's a bad feeling to know your choice could have saved everybody time. Your choice could have involved clearing that content a week earlier. And you chose not to because you wanted to play your preferred job at everyone's expense. It's just... a bad feeling.