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  1. #11
    Player Alhanelem's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Bastok
    Posts
    6,548
    Character
    Tahngarthor
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    PUP Lv 99
    The problem with staff is that it's a relatively high delay/low damage weapon in general.
    Staves are relatively high damage, relatively low delay- the lowest delay of any 2-H weapons. The relic staves have high enough DMG: to compete with other 2h weapons, but have lower delay. Their DPS overall is right up there with any other 2-H weapon.

    Staff's only true weakness as a weapon is not a whole lot in the way of weapon skills. But the specialized ones on the relic/empy weapons are great.
    (1)
    Last edited by Alhanelem; 06-12-2011 at 12:59 AM.

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  2. #12
    Player Tagrineth's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
    Posts
    252
    Character
    Tagrineth
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
    Main Class
    WAR Lv 99
    Actually, no. Staff's biggest weakness as a weapon is the jobs that are stuck using it! No amount of willpower will grant SMN, BLM, WHM, or SCH a better skill ranking in it nor will it grant them job traits/abilities or even remotely decent gear relevant to DD.

    For the most part the only gear those four jobs get access to for DD is "All Jobs" gear. WHM gets some spotty melee bonuses (e.g. Haste on the Blessed set), but it's extremely limited in scope (same example, Blessed only boosts Haste, not even token Accuracy or base stats).

    Not only that but out of those four, the only job that gets access to the full array of WS is WHM. The other three don't get the elemental WS unless they sub WAR MNK PLD or WHM. None of which is an ideal subjob for the task.

    Following that, of course, is the hilarious catch: WHM can't even wield Hvergelmir. So the three jobs that can wield it don't even have the "ability" to use all of its weaponskills, including Cataclysm which BLM and SCH would be able to use pretty well!

    ...and finally, the hilarious dealbreaker: Myrkr is worthless because Spirit Taker (that and to use Myrkr you'd have to fulltime the staff over an affinity staff).

    If you want an Empy Staff, by all means go for it. It's not "bad" per se, it's great for SMN soloing for example... but don't kid yourself, it's definitely extremely lacking in utility and will absolutely never be more useful in a group setting than other staves.
    (2)

  3. #13
    Player Byrth's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,172
    Character
    Byrth
    World
    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    You want staves to be worthwhile? Make it so you don't lose TP when you swap them, and give all the important ones hidden 2TP/tick regain.
    (3)

  4. #14
    Player Alhanelem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Bastok
    Posts
    6,548
    Character
    Tahngarthor
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    PUP Lv 99
    Actually, no. Staff's biggest weakness as a weapon is the jobs that are stuck using it! No amount of willpower will grant SMN, BLM, WHM, or SCH a better skill ranking in it nor will it grant them job traits/abilities or even remotely decent gear relevant to DD.
    SMN has B skill which is plenty good enough, it's second only to PLD and tied with MNK. I have full strength merits, full staff merits, appropriate gear, etc. I can assure you that coupled with garuda using hastega and predator claws, it is damage that keeps up with anyone else. The only real problem with staff is the WS- If you calculate the base DPS (ratio of damage to delay converted to seconds) the relic/mythic/empyrean staves are right up there with all the other ones. They are not inferior weapons, it is just difficult for the average person to make use of them. That is fine though- They're not for the average person, they're for dedicated specialists who think outside the box.

    Make it so you don't lose TP when you swap them
    No tp loss on weapon switching would be nice and allow BLM and SMN to actually make use of Occult Acumen; but this would probably be overpowered for other jobs. Occult accumen + Adloquium makes hverglmir sort of interesting for SCH to use with a maximum magic damage atma set instead of including an atma with refresh. It's not really better or worse than any other method, but it can be fun and different.

    Following that, of course, is the hilarious catch: WHM can't even wield Hvergelmir
    Thats because WHM's main weapon is club, not staff. And Yagrush (sp?) is awesome and the most commonly obtained mythic in the game.
    (1)
    Last edited by Alhanelem; 06-12-2011 at 06:02 AM.

    Someone care to tell me what's wrong with a couple Yukes?
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  5. #15
    Player Raksha's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,205
    Character
    Raksha
    World
    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    SCH Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Alhanelem View Post
    Occult accumen + Adloquium makes hverglmir sort of interesting for SCH to use with a maximum magic damage atma set instead of including an atma with refresh. It's not really better or worse than any other method, but it can be fun and different.
    no no no no no


    no
    (3)

  6. #16
    Player Zumi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    881
    Character
    Zumi
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    SE could actually learn from WoW on this one.

    For example Blizzard is making a new Legendary staff for casters in their upcoming patch, the weapon is by far the best for any caster and there is a long quest and farming raids to get it, but in the end they have the best weapon they can get for the current patch and will let them do the most damage with their spells.

    So why can't BLM/SMN/SCH/WHM get actual empyeran staffs and club that actually let them perform the best at what they do best which is casting spells?
    (1)

  7. #17
    Player
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,067
    Seriously guys, go look at the DOT numbers on Hver 90 and Ukon 90. Hver is 7.5% under Ukon.

    Hver 90:
    http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Hvergelmir_(90)

    Ukon 90:
    http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ukonvasara_(90)

    This is a source of damage that most BLM/SCH/SMN don't touch with a 10-foot pole. No, you don't have the melee skills to make your staff "WAR awesome," but WAR don't use Tier V nukes, Hate-free avatar damage, or any of our numerous buffs/debuffs.

    Yes, you will lose spike damage. You will do more total damage.

    Myrkr is miles ahead of Spirit Taker, which can miss. SE did a great job designing a WS to surpass Spirit Taker. Not all emp weapons have WS that people want to use, so mages got the best deal.

    Relic and Mythic are much weaker due to less popular WS, but they still surpass common weapons.
    (0)

  8. #18
    Player Greatguardian's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    3,238
    You will do more total damage with an Empyrean staff than a Ukonvasara WAR?

    Because of the Damage/Delay on the weapon with absolutely no regard for pDif/cRatio, fStr, x-hits, or Accuracy?

    Using a weaponskill that does 0 damage?

    Casting spells that interrupt TP'ing and take 5s~ (Blizzard V by not-suck blm) to cast?

    Using BPs with a 45 second minimum cooldown?

    Get out.
    (10)

  9. #19
    Player
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    Mar 2011
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    1,067
    I don't have to deal more damage than a Ukon WAR, I just have to do more damage than an ice staff SMN.
    (0)

  10. #20
    Player Greatguardian's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    3,238
    So if you're hitting things in addition to BP'ing as opposed to just BP'ing, how are you "losing spike damage" again?

    Your post made it sound very much like you were claiming to do "more total damage" than a Ukon WAR, and that is just absolutely, 110% batcrap preposterous. Something smells very much like safeface.

    Edit: Also, looking at "DPS" numbers by comparing Damage/Delay ratios on weapons is an absolutely horrid way to compare anything at all ever. Please just stop talking about comparing your Emp Staff to anything but other Staves on other Mages until you realize this.
    (4)

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