[dev1017] PLD proposed adjustments

[Naix]

From the list:

Paladin

* The effect for the job ability Cover will be partially modified.
* The job ability Shield Bash will grant a damage bonus based on the type of shield used.
* The job ability Divine Emblem will grant a damage bonus based on the player's divine magic skill.


Thoughts? I fail how to see this will effect much of anything if I understand it correctly.

Cover to be effective will have to be overhauled, as opposed to partially modified. For starters, on the occassion I use this ability too often am I lined up what i feel to be 'correctly' and I don't cover anything.

Shield Bash doing more damage is nice, but I don't think you really worried about the damage it would deal anyways even with an Aegis, and would use it more for stun/hate purposes.

I often forget we have Divine Emblem to be honest, it really is an afterthought. Unless there is some hidden use for it I'm missing. So if I use Divine Emblem post update, I should expect to see a damage increase on Holy? If it's not monumental I think I'll just save that MP to use on a Cure4 thanks.

I realize PLD is a difficult job to fix, but the above suggested changes don't seem to do much of anything. These are more like 'tweaks' when PLD needs multiple 'overhauls'.

Thoughts?

[Nebo]

Yeah it seems like the only thing that has the potential to even resemble something useful is the cover adjustment. But we won't know what that is until they release the update notes I guess?

PLD seems like a really hard job for them to update. Of course not wanting to take the simple route of "Just increase PLD's DD potential." But the reality that lack of DMG output is really why DD's are better. They have great defensive options as well as great DD output. What sense does it make that the best DD's all have some really potent defenive JA's/Traits but PLD has no potent offensive JA's/Traits.

Maybe if they gave PLD a JA or Trait that gave a DMG taken increase effect to the monster when facing the PLD? Sort of like an "I'm distracting you so the DD's can hit all your weak parts" kind of gaze effect? Or something that allows PLD to enhace the DMG potential of the party enough to warrant not having a DD in its place? A significant boost in TP gain for Shield blocks?

[Naix]

Yeah it seems like the only thing that has the potential to even resemble something useful is the cover adjustment. But we won't know what that is until they release the update notes I guess?

PLD seems like a really hard job for them to update. Of course not wanting to take the simple route of "Just increase PLD's DD potential." But the reality that lack of DMG output is really why DD's are better. They have great defensive options as well as great DD output. What sense does it make that the best DD's all have some really potent defenive JA's/Traits but PLD has no potent offensive JA's/Traits.

Maybe if they gave PLD a JA or Trait that gave a DMG taken increase effect to the monster when facing the PLD? Sort of like an "I'm distracting you so the DD's can hit all your weak parts" kind of gaze effect? Or something that allows PLD to enhace the DMG potential of the party enough to warrant not having a DD in its place? A significant boost in TP gain for Shield blocks?

I wish I had an answer haha.

Ideally, you'd like to see PLD be able to tank without needing to resort to damage dealing; and anything you get out of them is a bonus. Otherwise it's just too similar to other classes. Unfortunately, I don't think there is a part for that in todays FFXI, nor possible.

Another idea i've seen thrown around was have them 'replace' the role of a whm. As opposed to say a WAR + a WHM duoing something, make it so a PLD + WAR could achieve the same goal. A mix of upping their cure potential/ability to keep hate or some jazz. I don't know how you do it without breaking the game/overpowering it, but I think that's the last niche you'll see.

If all else fails, then yeah I agree. Give them more offensive abilities. Every DD has a some form of defensive ability/trait, either it being through their main or their sj. The best PLD gets is /war? With berserk and double attack. You can make the damage per hit and ws average respectable, but the tp gain/rate of attack just doesn't come close to keeping up. If you go /nin and use double sword, I think you get away from what they envisioned with PLD, and that's using their shield.

Will be interesting to see what happens with PLD to say the least.

[Lazus]

I think it a step in the right direction but yea it still got a long way before they are excepted back in parties as anything more then filler atm.

[Cursed]

plds just need to be beneficial in a party/ally. its not hard to introduce stuff to the job that would achieve this.
give PLD stances. A magic defensive stance, physical defensive stance, enfeebling magic defensive stance, and make them ALL aoe. so that whichever mob you're fighting, if you have a PLD in your pt its going to be a MUCH easier fight.
Make these stances grant bonus to the PLD when used. Make them slow down enmity loss, or make them enhance other PLD job abilities, kinda like how iron will and guardian enhance rampart and sentinel.

quick example
Magic defensive stance - Reduces elemental damage taken for entire party and yourself and converts some of the magic dmg taken BY everyone to MP. Rampart and fealty recast reduced by 50% sentinel recast increased by 50%.

Physical defensive stance - reduce physical damage taken for entire party and yourself, converts some of the physical dmg taken by everyone to HP. sentinel and shield bash ecast time reduced by 50%, rampart recast time increased by 50%.

All stances should reduce enmity decay of PLD and increase enmity decay of party.

[Aeonk]

I wish I had an answer haha.

Ideally, you'd like to see PLD be able to tank without needing to resort to damage dealing; and anything you get out of them is a bonus. Otherwise it's just too similar to other classes. Unfortunately, I don't think there is a part for that in todays FFXI, nor possible.

Another idea i've seen thrown around was have them 'replace' the role of a whm. As opposed to say a WAR + a WHM duoing something, make it so a PLD + WAR could achieve the same goal. A mix of upping their cure potential/ability to keep hate or some jazz. I don't know how you do it without breaking the game/overpowering it, but I think that's the last niche you'll see.

If all else fails, then yeah I agree. Give them more offensive abilities. Every DD has a some form of defensive ability/trait, either it being through their main or their sj. The best PLD gets is /war? With berserk and double attack. You can make the damage per hit and ws average respectable, but the tp gain/rate of attack just doesn't come close to keeping up. If you go /nin and use double sword, I think you get away from what they envisioned with PLD, and that's using their shield.

Will be interesting to see what happens with PLD to say the least.

There's one thing I don't get.

PLD has always used dmg to tank. Atonement just made it mainstream. Now that that's gone, people seem to want some new gimmick or change in game mechanics to cement us in our rightful place... Why not just give us some natural traits/JA's that make dealing dmg easier? That way we can go back to tanking the way we've been tanking all along.

At this point I'd settle for Fencer naturally.

[Lazus]

There's one thing I don't get.

PLD has always used dmg to tank. Atonement just made it mainstream. Now that that's gone, people seem to want some new gimmick or change in game mechanics to cement us in our rightful place... Why not just give us some natural traits/JA's that make dealing dmg easier? That way we can go back to tanking the way we've been tanking all along.

At this point I'd settle for Fencer naturally.

I agree (and still no clue why atonement got such a nerf to begin with especially since dd can easily do well over 2k ws) looking at past ff games pld usually have been a good source of dmg and defense. Although if they would still need to balance pld as to not out do the dd, but a far as i can see it right now as long as you can get a dd that can hold hate and survive easy enough, even if you make it easier for pld to hold hate a dd will still be the chosen tank.

[Naix]

There's one thing I don't get.

PLD has always used dmg to tank. Atonement just made it mainstream. Now that that's gone, people seem to want some new gimmick or change in game mechanics to cement us in our rightful place... Why not just give us some natural traits/JA's that make dealing dmg easier? That way we can go back to tanking the way we've been tanking all along.

At this point I'd settle for Fencer naturally.

I don't know if I would say that 'we used damage to tank'; more then before it was more like 'we used damage to help supplement tanking abilities.'

You would never rely on a PLD to be the damage dealer. But the combo of cures/cure cheating/flashes/job abilities/damage dealing/damage mitigation would push a PLD to very high levels on the hate list.

Fast forward to today's FFXI and the majority of what I mentioned above no longer works, the only thing that does work is damage dealing. Every DD can do this at such a high level though and hence PLD has lost its spot.

Increasing the DD potential of a PLD might help... but if I wanted to play a DD then I would just hop on my DRK which is geared very well.

[Aeonk]

I don't know if I would say that 'we used damage to tank'; more then before it was more like 'we used damage to help supplement tanking abilities.'

You would never rely on a PLD to be the damage dealer. But the combo of cures/cure cheating/flashes/job abilities/damage dealing/damage mitigation would push a PLD to very high levels on the hate list.

Fast forward to today's FFXI and the majority of what I mentioned above no longer works, the only thing that does work is damage dealing. Every DD can do this at such a high level though and hence PLD has lost its spot.

Increasing the DD potential of a PLD might help... but if I wanted to play a DD then I would just hop on my DRK which is geared very well.

Should probably add the stipulation that all of the above that we used to rely on (cure cheats flash etc.) doesn't work inside abyssea. In there, damage dealing puts everything else on the back burner, so pushing PLD's DD potential inside abyssea would at least help it be relevant for other things besides red !!! flags.

That said, outside abyssea content (mainly VWNM's and some of the new mobs in dyna. about the only content that's not piss easy anymore) is where Flash and such are relevant again. In other words, PLD can actually tank them. But dealing dmg will still be one of the best hate tools in the game. For PLD, any damage buff is a buff that helps you hold hate over other DD's.

[Mordanthos]

The answer to your question about the ability you forgot, Divine Emblem. You asked what it can be used for, and I'll tell you. If you read the description on it, it mentions an increase enmity to the next divine spell cast. And let me tell you something that does REDICULOUS amounts of enmity when you need it in a pinch. Pop Divine Emblem and cast Flash, its Enmity gain is massive, and you will find yourself gaining threat back when you thought it was near impossible to achieve.