Puppetmaster's Asuran Fists <Where?>

[Yoky]

btw: I have capped dagger and no you cant use eviseration. so your arguement fails. I dunno why you even want Asuran Fists beside the fact that you can do a backflip. SP is a stronger WS.

[Mizuharu]

btw: I have capped dagger and no you cant use eviseration. so your arguement fails. I dunno why you even want Asuran Fists beside the fact that you can do a backflip. SP is a stronger WS.

Who are you talking to? The guy that tried to side with you about PUP not getting Asuran Fists by saying Evisceration was PUP accessable? Or me who corrected him, but you took it as me saying we get Evisceration and tried to make it a failed argument? He was mistaken; not a fail.

Why would a BST want Spiral Hell? They main axes. Why would a BRD want Evisceration? They never melee by the level they can get it. Why would a RNG want Decimation? Their main damage is always from ranged attacks. Save for some newer players, everyone has done all the WSNMs for their jobs since Abyssea came out and blue staggering was installed; if not before because they could. That's the only reason.

Why should we get Asuran Fists? Why shouldn't we? You say it sucks and that Stringing Pummel is better; which it is. It's vastly better. But then, why should BST get Spiral Hell? Rampage/Primal Rend will always top it. RNGs will always stay out of melee range by the time they can learn Evisceration/Decimation. You ever see a PLD tank with a Great Sword rather than a shield/sword? (Actually, scratch that last one. There's always going to be one of those PLDs leveling up thinking Great Sword will be better because it hits harder...) Any mage job meleeing on anything that requires a group effort? Hell, even solo a BLM or SCH is going to depend on nukes over melee damage. RDM I'm not going to say can't melee because they were originally made to be melee/mage hybrid. They can effectively solo most things with the right subjob, gear, and knowing when it's okay to melee or to focus on magic.

And that lore bit is crap since none of the other WSNMs actually stick to their lore if other jobs were added onto them. (Ex: Brutus is an ExBeastmaster. He starts the Decimation WSNM quest; which BST can use, yes. Along with DRK/WAR/RNG. RNG I can see being -kinda- like BST because of the lore for that job, but DRK and WAR? lol. Only reason they're on that? They got the skill level for the weapon by 75.)

[Alhanelem]

everyone has done all the WSNMs for their jobs since Abyssea came out and blue staggering was installed

Not really, unless you're a quest completionist junkie, no one wants to waste time earning WS points for a WS they won't ever use.

[Jar]

Not really, unless you're a quest completionist junkie, no one wants to waste time earning WS points for a WS they won't ever use.

i got them all to proc because procing is a big thing and from how SE has moved on with voidwatch and dyna having procs i doubt it will go away.

[Deadvinta]

Empyreal Arrow, not Arching Arrow.

Now settle down and have fun with Stringing Pummel instead. PUP would probably get a WSNM weaponskill that ended up being crap anyway.

[Alhanelem]

Let SP trigger blue !! too and the problem (?) is solved.

I like this idea, though non-PUPs will hate it.

After they bumped PUP's Hand-to-Hand skill up from C to B+ (not B-) while the cap was still 75, they met the required skill level for Asurun Fists. Your argument is invalid on that...

That doesn't invalidate my argument. There is no precedent for changing quests following a balance change like this. In fact I'm not sure that any job has had it's combat skill cap increased the way PUP's was. At the time, they obviously felt that Asuran should remain MNK exclusive. They had already given us several MNK-exclusive WS prior to that, do we really need to step on their toes any more than we already have? The Trial Weapon is not a type of HTH weapon that is standard to PUP, and they generally don't change allowed jobs on items, other than when a new job is introduced.

[Mizuharu]

I like this idea, though non-PUPs will hate it.

That doesn't invalidate my argument. There is no precedent for changing quests following a balance change like this. In fact I'm not sure that any job has had it's combat skill cap increased the way PUP's was. At the time, they obviously felt that Asuran should remain MNK exclusive. They had already given us several MNK-exclusive WS prior to that, do we really need to step on their toes any more than we already have? The Trial Weapon is not a type of HTH weapon that is standard to PUP, and they generally don't change allowed jobs on items, other than when a new job is introduced.

Why should they make a mythic WS proc Blue when no other Mythic WS can? They made the WSNM WSs proc because most everyone can get them with ease; where as Nyzul it depends on the floor you're on.

The Dagger of Trials isn't the standard type of dagger DNCs can use. And we already discussed that I meant to say your argument is flawed. All you're doing is going back and rewording your previous statements, making it seem like it's something new to the table. That's all we've been doing; back and forth. Anytime I bring up a counter argument, you bring up what I just countered but restructured. Honestly, it's old...

1) Was originally MNK only, should stay MNK only. (One of two compelling argument so far. But Dancing Edge/Shark Bite use to be THF only and then DNC was added on. "But those aren't WSNM WSs" Fine. Detonator. Originally RNG only, COR was added on due to them getting the combat skill requirement.)

2) PUP doesn't need it because they have Stringing Pummel/Victory Smite. (BST mains Axes and rarely, if ever, use scythe. They don't need Sprial Hell. COR's main damage is from marksmenship. They don't need Savage Blade/Evisceration. MNK mains Hand-to-Hand. Why do they need Staff/Club WSs? Again; because Square-Enix gave them the combat rating. Thus, because they got the combat skill without merits/gear before or at level 75, they were allowed to partake in the WSNM quest.)

3) The time spent adding PUP onto the weapons could be used to fix the Automaton AI. (Really? You think that adding Puppetmaster onto one weapon would take longer than rewriting an AI program? You think it'd take that much effort that they'd say "well, that's all they'll get for a while. Let's save the AI program for next year." It's been how long since WHM/BLM frames have been out? And they still havn't done anything about -nas before Cures and high thresholds for Aspir/Drain. The AI works for solo play. They meant PUP to be a solo job that can still DD in party formats (like BST.))

4) If they wanted us to have it, they'd have done it when we received the combat update. (True. This, honestly, is the only good point any of you have made. But there's so many things that certain jobs should have gotten, and are now getting (Yonin/Innin on seperate timers. Longer duration on Last Resort. Just to name a few.) I am hoping to get a Dev to notice this thread and at least say yay or nay.)

5) Just make Stringing Pummel a blue proc! (See above post before this list.)

6) Puppetmaster can't wear the type of weapon the trial weapon is for Asuran Fists. (Again, see above the list.)

7) There's only a one in three chance that, during blunt hours, the WS is Hand-to-Hand. And then a one in five chance it's Asuran Fists. (True, true. But, like people have said, procing !! is such a small part of the game. And, honestly, I admit to originally writing this thread for blue procing on PUP. But now it's just for equaility; having access to our main weapon's WSNM.)

8) Stringing Pummel/Victory Smite is better. (While this is true, if you met a MNK that didn't have Asuran Fists, you'd be appalled. If you met any job that doesn't have the WSNM for their main weapon, you'd be appalled. Atm, PUP is expected to not have it because they don't have access to it. Stringing Pummel/Victory Smite is better damage for PUP, yes. But Ascetic's Fury/Victory Smite is better for MNK with damage.)

9) It'd ruin the lore behind the quest. (Because the lore for any other quest had mattered for the rest of the WSNMs.)


Please, if I missed any points you or someone else had made against this, let me know.

[Alhanelem]

5) Just make Stringing Pummel a blue proc! (See above post before this list.)

Again, if anything, this is what I would do, but 90% of the playerbase would probably be railing SE if they did this.

While this is true, if you met a MNK that didn't have Asuran Fists, you'd be appalled.

Only because it is a proc. Otherwise I'd be glad they have something better to use.

(Because the lore for any other quest had mattered for the rest of the WSNMs.)

You know, some people care about the story and the lore. After all, isn't it supposed to be one of FFXI's greatest strengths over other MMOs?

[Mizuharu]

You know, some people care about the story and the lore. After all, isn't it supposed to be one of FFXI's greatest strengths over other MMOs?

And then along came Abyssea...

That's more of a joke response than a serious one lol. Honestly, the lore behind quests/NPCs is ignored when needed. The PLD starter NPC? He also plays a role in the DRG quest. And teaches Impulse Drive. A DRG/WAR/SAM WS. Why isn't PLD included on it? (Because of low combat ranking in polearm.) Or, and this time it isn't some minor quest thing, what about Aegis? The NPC in the past that weilds it is Cerane I Virgaut, where as the NPC you see during the CS is Perseus. Hell, the original owner of Annihilator was Elivira from, but then the CS shows Elrica (might be related in some way since both are humes, but...) You look up any other relic weapon wielded by an Allied Army NPC, and they're the NPC for the CS.

And, I can't believe I almost forgot about this, what about Gungnir? It is the javelin wielded by Odin, and yet Odin is seen wielding a completely different polearm, which he calls Gungnir. (In Square-Enix's defense though, they did make the relic weapons before they planned on making Odin a monster. And while it is not called Gungnir directly, they are names the polearm was also known by.)

All in all, if they need to make a loophole around lore, they do.