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  1. #81
    Player Greatguardian's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Because people are totally worried about all the times that they lose claim when they intentionally hit /attack off. The fact that they used the disengage mechanic to trigger the forfeiture of a claim has absolutely nothing to do with the "ridiculousness" of sheathing your weapon.

    Edit: You can use ranged abilities and spells without being engaged. You cannot use Any WS without being in Battle Mode. That does not mean there is a "glitch" with the claim system. That means that WS are not programmed to be usable outside of Battle Mode. Period.
    (2)

  2. #82
    Player
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    Windurst
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    184
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatguardian View Post
    Because people are totally worried about all the times that they lose claim when they intentionally hit /attack off. The fact that they used the disengage mechanic to trigger the forfeiture of a claim has absolutely nothing to do with the "ridiculousness" of sheathing your weapon.

    Edit: You can use ranged abilities and spells without being engaged. You cannot use Any WS without being in Battle Mode. That does not mean there is a "glitch" with the claim system. That means that WS are not programmed to be usable outside of Battle Mode. Period.
    That's the point. What about having your weapon drawn has anything to do with being in "battle mode"? You get the battle music for using any action on a mob. Also, it is not working as intended when a group can claim your unclaimed mob and proceed to kill it while it still has hate on your group. They just follow it around with weapons drawn and finish it off while it finishes you off.

    Here are my suggestions for fixing NM claims:

    Increase the engage/disengage distance to 40 yalms.
    Remove auto-forfeit of claim by putting away weapon.
    Replace CFH on NMs with "Release Claim", so that a group still has the option to relinquish a mob they can't reasonably kill.

    It doesn't matter (to me at least) that if you "suck less" and keep people dedicated to maintaining claim, you can work through most situations. The fact that it's still possible for a group to camp on top of you waiting for you to lose claim means the system is NOT working.

    If these people aren't punishable by the ToS, either the ToS needs updating to include this provision, or the mechanics of the claim system need adjusting to disallow this. This thread was started with the spirit of stopping, not the random group that sees someone wiping as they pass by and decide to claim a mob, but those that don't farm their own NMs and camp on top of those specific mobs (like charming ones) because they have a loophole in the ToS that allows them to exploit a game mechanic.
    (6)

  3. #83
    Player Greatguardian's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Er, having your weapon drawn is synonymous to being in Battle Mode. It appears in the upper left corner of the screen when you do so. The battle music change is relatively recent (Originally, you only did get battle music if engaged), and was added specifically to give people a heads up to combat in their alliance rather than as a side effect of fighting mobs.

    Do vultures suck? Yes. Are they doing anything illegal by standing around in a point of their choosing, doing absolutely NOTHING to hinder the fight or interfere with the combatants? No. Never. Not in a million years. At best it's rude, but so is /check according to some people =/.

    I highly doubt this problem is as widespread as people are making it out to be, too. I have never, not once, seen a group sit around at a spawn point without pops for the sole purpose of stealing other people's NMs. Who the hell does that? It is a complete and utter waste of time unless you know you are dealing with absolute idiots who are going to be wiping/losing claim every pop.
    (3)

  4. #84
    Player blowfin's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    440
    Character
    Blowfin
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    COR Lv 90
    Basic things about the game. I would say "Knowing how to keep a mob red" would be "Basic education of the game". Especially if they're so afraid of "Vultures", you think they would research a way to keep mobs red. It just seems like a basic preventative measure.
    Well sure, it's easy to say that after someone has had a bad experience. As far as it being basic knowledge of the game I'd say it's not really. It's something that people learn over time through experiences of losing claim and etc. It's knowledge that I'd suggest is usually learnt as a reactionary measure, rather than before the fact like strategies. It's probably pretty far off the radar of players who are entering into Abyss for the first time. It's even further off the radar for people who don't have an interest in browsing forums and the like (yes, they're real players too). Hell I've been playing since 2004, have done a lot of content, and I've learnt things about the claim system in the past few weeks that I didn't know. Do you know why I'm learning new things? They just didn't matter as much as they do now in the current game. The hate mechanics have never before caused the volume of issues they are causing now.
    (0)

  5. #85
    Player TybudX's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    186
    Character
    Elementa
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    WAR Lv 1
    It's probably pretty far off the radar of players who are entering into Abyss for the first time.
    Woah, woah, hold on there Tex! What's this there Abyssea you folks are talking about? Is that like a BCNM or something?

    Do you know why I'm learning new things? They just didn't matter as much as they do now in the current game. The hate mechanics have never before caused the volume of issues they are causing now.
    I find this kind of funny considering the discovery of 'hate mechanics' was probably the most prolific and important spread of information in FFXIs history. It was a major development in the English speaking player base and helped bring the concept of 'tanking' out of the dark ages to what we have now. Granted it wasn't until very, very recently that 'DD tanking' has become more popular, but high end players have been eschewing traditional tanks for everything except fun for a long time now. I know you have posted on Alla in the past, and that the information was there if you wanted to learn it. But then, I was being rate bombed there as recently as this Christmas for suggesting that DDs should carry pdt/mdt sets with them, so as somebody else said... willful ignorance.

    Not saying that something should or shouldn't be done about the claim system (actually, I'm with Chocobits on this one), but saying the 'hate mechanics' didn't matter much until recently? It's kind of the core of the game.
    (0)
    Quote Originally Posted by Alhanelem View Post
    False on both counts. I don't always disagree, nor do I think I'm always right.

  6. #86
    Player Frost's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    334
    Character
    Phraust
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    Actually that's a pretty elegant solution to the issue; tie the claim to battle music. If you have battle music, you have claim.
    (2)
    If you don't understand why Haste is so important, or if you don't think it is:
    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1847-Haste-and-You...-A-guide-to-the-misinformed.

  7. #87
    Player Linh's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Windurst
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    157
    Quote Originally Posted by Chocobits View Post
    If these people aren't punishable by the ToS, either the ToS needs updating to include this provision, or the mechanics of the claim system need adjusting to disallow this.
    Took the words right outta my mouth.
    (0)
    90 MNK. 90 BLM. 90 COR. 90 WAR.

    All POST-Abyssea LEECHED and proud of it.

    Cept MNK (Got up to 41 in 2009). All that time wasted camping Retaliators....

  8. 06-01-2011 05:17 PM

  9. #88
    Player Antipika's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Windurst
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    37
    @Chocobits

    I don't see any ToS update coming, do you really think that SE have the time to investigate/punish all players "stealing" NMs? Do you even think that evidence can be easily found? MPKer aren't even always punished, so players stealing... Goodluck with that.

    Either game mechanisms gets updated either... game mechanisms gets updated. Just forget about the ToS. Will not solve anything.
    (0)

  10. #89
    Player blowfin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    440
    Character
    Blowfin
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    COR Lv 90
    I find this kind of funny considering the discovery of 'hate mechanics' was probably the most prolific and important spread of information in FFXIs history. It was a major development in the English speaking player base and helped bring the concept of 'tanking' out of the dark ages to what we have now. Granted it wasn't until very, very recently that 'DD tanking' has become more popular, but high end players have been eschewing traditional tanks for everything except fun for a long time now. I know you have posted on Alla in the past, and that the information was there if you wanted to learn it. But then, I was being rate bombed there as recently as this Christmas for suggesting that DDs should carry pdt/mdt sets with them, so as somebody else said... willful ignorance.
    If you're talking about Kaeko's enmity testing i'm well aware of that. I was under the assumption that players had known how the claim system had worked well before that information was compiled though. Willful ignorance? Not really, the only times the claim system has ever effected me much is on BST, and I'm well aware of how to deal with that. My other jobs aren't effected by it anywhere near as much. So, I know very well what the issues are that effect my jobs, which puts me pretty far from ignorant really. Anything beyond that is an exercise in curiosity from my point of view, and either constitutes a waste of time or brain cells, or both.

    Not saying that something should or shouldn't be done about the claim system (actually, I'm with Chocobits on this one), but saying the 'hate mechanics' didn't matter much until recently? It's kind of the core of the game.
    If you didn't know how it worked 3 years ago chances are you weren't at much of a disadvantage. Even in HNM the times when it was actually useful knowledge to be armed with were few and far between. Now you most certainly are at a disadvantage in Abyss if you have no idea. I'm talking in relative terms too, not the uber-fashionable absolutes. I'm not saying that knowledge of the claim system was useless before Abyss, but it's several orders of magnitude more relevant now.

    Core of the game? Sure we can use that term. If you're happy to accept the fact that it's being exposed to countless more players than it was a couple of years ago.
    (0)

  11. #90
    Player Seriha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    976
    Character
    Kalsena
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Do vultures suck? Yes. Are they doing anything illegal by standing around in a point of their choosing, doing absolutely NOTHING to hinder the fight or interfere with the combatants? No. Never. Not in a million years. At best it's rude, but so is /check according to some people =/.
    Get enough people standing around and lag starts happening. Historically, some have issues with avatars causing FPS chug, especially with Titan doing something like Earthen Ward to everyone it can. When people start lagging, their performance starts slipping, and given FFXI's age and design, getting a better computer isn't exactly a guaranteed solution, nevermind the asanine implication that someone could have to spend hundreds of dollars on a new rig to help keep claim or guarantee the success of your party/alliance I'm sure would be suggested in counter. Plus if it's a location where adds are an issue, you make it more difficult for the main fighting party to tab around quickly. So no, they're not being harmless.
    (1)

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