Thief Job Ability Synergy: This is not 2005

[Masekase]

Well it's certainly not him. I explained how to SA a spinning mob earlier. But I'll state it again:
On anything that matters you wont have many melees. 2 or 3 Max. When you are hate capped, each action will spin the mob to that player. Line up opposite the player, time your Sneak Attack so the other player gets an attack round off (and subsequently pulls hate) before you land the Sneak Attack. It wont work every time as sometimes the other melee will get physically hit, which lowers enmity and may spin the mob back to you, but he stated it works most of the time. And that is true.

I think it is being highly exageratted I rarely have any problems with SA or TA. Also if mob is spinning just trick attack someone who can hold it and then sa.

[Syllna]

Indeed, Nebo is definitely overplaying the TA thing and sounds like he needs to find a linkshell that's not full of people that don't understand how to play cooperatively. It also sounds like he's not a career THF either as true career thf's like noodles is pointing out, know how to play around mobs and know how to effectively use each of their job abilities.

[Nebo]

I thought it would be fairly simple: By forcing you to miss Trick Attack, he is lowering your damage output and ultimately how fast you kill them mob. If you trick attack him chances are it wont lower his damage output and wont slow down the speed you kill them mob. Infact, if it's a War or Mnk, it will actually increase their damage output by letting them get some counter-attacks in and again increase killspeed.

That same argument can easily go the other way. If its a NIN or THF you've just gimped their damage. There are a limited number of jobs that would be able to use abilities like counter or retaliation in the first place, there are many more that have no such benefit and really don't want any added enmity. Even that WAR will have to drop Berserk. They are being forced to play your playstyle so you can deal your damage.

It's called a sacrifice. You sacrifice some of your damage output to increase overall efficiency in lowman groups. In this case, being efficient is only having the Thf and !! proccers, as it means more drops for everyone and less NMs to be farmed. Can you not think of any other job that has to sacrifice their damage to be the most efficient?

Not as much as THF does. It is the very opposite of efficient when your 2 hour, your evasion, and tanking abilities, (not to mention your ability pull hate with shear melee DoT) are designed to work against using your fundamental Damage Dealing job abilities.

The point is not that it's unwanted/needed most of the time. It's that it is wanted/needed some of the time. And because it's needed some of the time, that is reason enough to not remove the enmity properties from it.

It is definately unwanted/needed most of the time. (even you just said this in your previous post lol) No one said anything about removing the enmity properties from Trick Attack.

I never said the job ability didn't have use. I said the opportunies to use it as a DD tool and its usefulness as an enmity tool are unreasonably limited.

This is not an overstatement.

[Nebo]

Well it's certainly not him. I explained how to SA a spinning mob earlier. But I'll state it again:
On anything that matters you wont have many melees. 2 or 3 Max. When you are hate capped, each action will spin the mob to that player. Line up opposite the player, time your Sneak Attack so the other player gets an attack round off (and subsequently pulls hate) before you land the Sneak Attack. It wont work every time as sometimes the other melee will get physically hit, which lowers enmity and may spin the mob back to you, but he stated it works most of the time. And that is true.

Noodles weighing in with the overstatements. I like.

On anything that matters? What about soloing NMs? What about exp alliances? What about dual boxing? What about THF + Mage Duo? What about outside of abyssea (where we are one day going again) and its the perception of "lolTHF is there for TH We need a real DD"

You make the mistake of thinking that because you have a point of view, and you do things a certain way that that you are right, and everyone else are "Idiots and retards."

Since we are talking about what matters. Lots of things matter to me. Soloing matters to me, tanking matters to me, putting together exp alliances for my friends matters to me. There are a great many situations where Sneak Attack and Trick Attack are unneccessarily limited.

This is not an overstatement.

Lets try it this way. Since you said that I wanted to remove the enmity properties from Trick Attack, I'm fairly sure you didn't read what I suggested. Why don't you read it and tell me what you find unbalanced about it?

Given your standpoint I don't really see why you are so against it. Even if what you said was true, and it is so easy to land Sneak Attack and Trick attack all the time, my tweak wouldn't really change much except allow us to DD to Job Ability potential when the situation calls for it. A slight boost to tanking...A few percentage points here or there to account for all the misses.

[Laphine]

I liked this idea because i low man stuff a lot. So it's not even a mob turning or player moving issue.

When i first leveled thief with an exp ally it sucked though. I hate missing SA and i missed way too much. Today i can counter that by soloing my own mob, or disengaging sooner to attack the next mob. This is an ability that atmas provided, although i could still disengage back then, and actually did, but well, people whined ("assist the MA!").

So yeah, i would enjoy very much such a change one way or another.

I like ideas that change sa/ta damage too. If they kept the position restriction but provided a significant boost to their damage, i would not be against at all. According to SE thieves specialize in covert actions and aim for the perfect opportunity to attack from behind. This perfect oportunity should, of course, translate in good damage. With this in mind, for me it's unreasonable that thieves are not ws epeen kings.

Still, sa/ta today doesn't provide a big boost to our damage, and removing restrictions won't change it much. I'll even dare say that a thief that doesn't sa/ta isn't so bad of a thief. Before abyssea and lvs75+ i would laugh at such thing.

[noodles355]

That same argument can easily go the other way. If its a NIN or THF you've just gimped their damage.

How? Innin? An Innin Nin is going to cap hate at a very similar speed to you, so you fall back to the capped hate - enmity not important argument. And another thief? Really? You realise they can do the same to you? If you have two thiefs the best thing to do is TA each other as much as you can. You really are now trying to argue for the sake of arguing.

Not as much as THF does. It is the very opposite of efficient when your 2 hour, your evasion, and tanking abilities, (not to mention your ability pull hate with shear melee DoT) are designed to work against using your fundamental Damage Dealing job abilities.

How is your evasion working against you? You realise the more you evade, the less you have to cast shadows, the more you keep swinging, and the more damage you do? You're complaining about the 2hr? So we have a shit 2hr. Guess what? We're not the only job that does. Get over it. For pure standard melee DD and WS you don't think any other job has to sacrifice as much as thief? What about Ranger? A job that at 75 was often forced to sub /Drg ONLY for it's gimped 33% enmity shed high jump. A job who can never just go all out with attacks and WSs for fear of moving the mob. Rng has to sacrifice so much mroe damage potential than a tanking thief. Especially if you do like we are trying to show you and actually use your abilities instead of whining. Stop crying that it doesn't work because it does. The fact you can't make it work is a comment on you and not the Thief job.

It is definately unwanted/needed most of the time. (even you just said this in your previous post lol) No one said anything about removing the enmity properties from Trick Attack.

I never said the job ability didn't have use. I said the opportunies to use it as a DD tool and its usefulness as an enmity tool are unreasonably limited.

This is not an overstatement.

It's usefulness as an enmity tool are limited, true. It's "unreasonable" usefulness as a DD tool aren't. That is an over statement. Or are you 100% correct in this topic and everyone else who's replied saying "Actually, I think it's fine" "I am able to do it fine" "I think you're over-reacting" is wrong? Because I wasn't the only one who said that. I'm apparantly just the only one who ruffled your feathers and got you in a huff about it.
I'm not sure where I took wanting to remove the enmity properties from trick attack from, sorry.

[noodles355]

Noodles weighing in with the overstatements. I like.

Hypocracy. "It never works QQ" is not an overstatement at all of course.

On anything that matters? What about soloing NMs? What about exp alliances? What about dual boxing? What about THF + Mage Duo? What about outside of abyssea (where we are one day going again) and its the perception of "lolTHF is there for TH We need a real DD"

Anything that matters = Difficult alliance or party fights. Top tier Abyssea VNMs etc. Things that actually provide a challenge. Couldn't give two shits about easy 2box AF3 mat farming. All the mobs are so easy that they're usually dead before I've managed to cycle all the blm spells when I 3box Thf Whm Blm. I say all the mobs, just before you go "what about X mob?!" - every seal has at least one easy mob to fight. There is no need to fight those more difficult ones". Outside of abyssea falls into a similar catagory. How much non-abyssea stuff do you do that's actually challenging? Not much.

You make the mistake of thinking that because you have a point of view, and you do things a certain way that that you are right, and everyone else are "Idiots and retards."

No, you made the reading comprehension mistake of thinking I called people that dont think like me, like yourself, who can't land trick attacks retards and idiots. I called people who move out of the way of trick attack repeatedly idiots and retards.

Since we are talking about what matters. Lots of things matter to me. Soloing matters to me, tanking matters to me, putting together exp alliances for my friends matters to me. There are a great many situations where Sneak Attack and Trick Attack are unneccessarily limited.

No offence but I don't give two shits what matters to you. Guess what, many things matter to me too, however the comment "anything that matters" meant proper fights where killspeed and efficiency are actually important in a bigish group of 8-18 people. It's a general statement that is used to mean "On important or difficult HNM etc". That's why when people ask questions about which is better between two pieces of gear they will often be answered "in exp, this one, on anything that matters, that one".

Given your standpoint I don't really see why you are so against it.

If it aint broke, why fix it? I'll say it again, the problem isn't the ability, it's your inability.

And I personally think being able to trick and sneak attack every 50-60 seconds seconds without any of the positioning troubles would be overpowered. Thief is not a pure DD. It is a hybrid job. Stop trying to make it a pure DD.

Party dynamics have changed, you are no longer able to play like it's 2005. Stop thinking you should be able to. Blms and Plds have gotten over it, it's time you did to. You sued to be able to ride the timers perfectly, now you can't. Big deal.

[Arcon]

Why don't you read it and tell me what you find unbalanced about it? [..] Given your standpoint I don't really see why you are so against it.

There's simply nothing wrong with THF. THF is a really well balanced job, and especially in the current state the game is in, it's a great job. It can tank as well as MNK and NIN, situationally better, while applying Treasure Hunter to the mob, which is a major factor imo. I'd prefer a THF tank over MNK or NIN for that reason any day. If THF had higher damage dealing capabilities (that increase Treasure Hunter even more than they have already), why use other tanks at all?

Some abilities simply weren't meant to work solo. And THF is one job that works heavily in that direction, it always has. The very idea behind Trick Attack is to be used to give someone else enmity, not to deal damage or increase theTreasure Hunter effect. I don't even think SE imagined THF to be as good a tank as it turned out to be, and I'm pretty sure after Abyssea it won't be anymore.

The only qualms I personally have about THF are Steal/Despoil and Mug. Apart from that I think the job performs very well in several categories, without robbing other jobs of their raison d'être. Some people complain about THF vs. DNC, and it's sad DNC can out damage thief imo, but I think it's because DNC is overpowered, in several aspects, not because THF is underpowered.

[thefinalrune]

Ha, I was going to make a post but Arcon seems to have hit every point I wanted to make.

In short, I really find no failings about thief at all outside of the practically complete uselessness and unreliability of Steal, Mug and Despoil.

[Nebo]

Hypocracy. "It never works QQ" is not an overstatement at all of course.

An overstatement of my overstatement. OVERSTATEMENTS FOR EVERYBODY!

In all seriousness I am fine with people disagreeing with me and thinking THF is fine. I love the job so its no suprise to me that others do. I know that THF has the potential to be VERY powerful. My only qualm is with the limit imposed on the opportunity to fulfil our current potential. I am definitely not "in a huff" about all of this. I quite enjoy the discussion.

If it aint broke, why fix it? I'll say it again, the problem isn't the ability, it's your inability.

lol it is definitely not my inability to land Sneak Attack or Trick Attack that has brought us to this discussion. It is because of my ability to really push the maximum limits of the Thief job that I see where those limitations lie.

No offence but I don't give two shits what matters to you

I do believe you just got the point. You're right. "Anything that matters" is a subjective idea.

There's simply nothing wrong with THF. THF is a really well balanced job, and especially in the current state the game is in, it's a great job.

Thief, as a job, is not fine simply because right now every one with a Weapon Skill that can critical is on god mode inside Abyssea. We are going to leave that place in the not so distant future. We need updates for what Thief will be moving forward.

And I personally think being able to trick and sneak attack every 50-60 seconds seconds without any of the positioning troubles would be overpowered. Thief is not a pure DD. It is a hybrid job. Stop trying to make it a pure DD.

I think you forget how hard it was to keep up with the (better designed) heavy hitter Damage Dealers before abysea, even being able to ride those timers to the max that their positional limitations would allow.

I think this and the next quote are the fundamental points we disagree on. Thief is not a hybrid job. It is a Damage Dealer with positional restrictions that can apply Treasure Hunter. Treasure Hunter is not a reason to make us a gimp DD. Are you happy with RNG being gimp now that they have bounty shot?

A hybrid job by design means that THF can do a lot of things and fill several roles. But we cannot. Our enmity abilities are mostly unwanted because they are not useful (even as admitted by you). Collaborator is really only useful for THF tanking (which we were not designed to do). Almost all of our other job abilities that aren't related to dealing damage are, well I would call them a joke, but it's really not funny anymore.

I agree with Arcon on this. THF is not a tank, was not designed to tank and can only tank inside abyssea because of atmas. This is true:

Some abilities simply weren't meant to work solo. And THF is one job that works heavily in that direction, it always has. The very idea behind Trick Attack is to be used to give someone else enmity, not to deal damage or increase theTreasure Hunter effect. I don't even think SE imagined THF to be as good a tank as it turned out to be, and I'm pretty sure after Abyssea it won't be anymore.

I absoutely agree. But trick attack isn't all that useful or wanted for its intended purpose. I disagree that this is the way it should be. Especially with the landscape of the game now and the way people play it.

The only qualms I personally have about THF are Steal/Despoil and Mug

That is a good example. Aurasteal, steal and despoil. Three abilities tied to one stupid long 5 minute recast timer (wtf?) with unreasonably low success rates (which kind of doesn't even matter because there is really not much in the game worth stealing). Out of these three, only aurasteal comes even remotely close to resembling something useful, but it still isn't because the recast timer is too long.

Mug. Enough said. Quite possibly the most useless ability in the game, on a 15 minute timer. lol.

Hide would be useful if it worked on more things.

Perfect Dodge. I've always thought this should be a job ability instead of a 2 hour. As a 2 hour it fails pretty hard.

Accomplice and collaborator were good ideas with failed implementation. Tied to the same timer, severe distance limitations. At least collaborator is still somewhat useful.

Flee is pretty good.

Even our prized evasion cannot stand on its own due to the evasion cap, the fact that we have no other defensive job abilities, and we have paper thin defense. It still requires shadows to be really exploited.

I left most of this stuff alone because our non DD stuff is such a train wreck it would be a lot of effort I don't think THF will get to fix.

Virtually everything useful we have is DD stuff. If THF is such a party oriented job and not meant to solo or tank, why do we have all this crazy evasion and a defensive 2 hour that we aren't designed to use to help a party? It's bad design.

I bring up sneak attack and trick attack because I think it would be the most subtle thing to tweak, while maintaining balance and creating a bit of synergy with the stuff we already have.

Square Enix has already said a few times that they are thinking of adjustments to bring THF to the front line and dictate the pace of battle. So with updates moving forward, those are the types of suggestions I make.

Besides, what is the point of a job adjustment update if it doesn't change anything?