Concerns about SCH.

[Hiroshiko]

When I learned about SCHs getting the spells Aquavail, Stoneskin and Blink It was a releif to me because honestly, they should have gotten them in the first place, I would like to have acess to Slow, Paralyze, Silence, ect because well we have pretty high enfeebling magic but don't have the natural ability to use enfeebles. Yes, Cure V, though how I have been in many arguements already about how RDMs and SCHs desperately need Cure V, we wont be putting WHMs out of business. God, it upsets me with how people think like that.

WHMs still have acess in Cure VI and they have neat JAs to boot, no one would ever overlook a WHM. However SCHs and RDM are put on the back burner because people scream for Cure V and VIs, I can never get into the good shouts because of this. We have like a D rating in Healing magic and quite frankly, Cure IV just doesn't cut it anymore. Its stressful and frustrating when you are the only healer and your tank is fighting harder mobs and getting the snot beat out of him.

The Cure V issue still worries me a bit. I don’t totally disagree with you, but I feel that many people have overlooked the implications of handing SCH (and RDM too) Cure V without some way of balancing it. I have both WHM and SCH so that’s my comparison point (I know enough about RDM, but not much from experience). Personally, I always preferred healing on WHM just because it was more natural to me, but that aside, SCH always had a lot of tools to improve their healing abilities and have only gained more over the updates.

My issue with Cure V is that before Abyssea, there was only one tier separation between WHMs and the other “main healers” (SCH and RDM). Both SCH and RDM had tools that made them more efficient at healing and thus more desirable in most situations. Even with /SCH, WHMs were sometimes second to RDMs when it came to healing because Cure V (and a lot of the other tools WHM had) wasn’t necessary for things such as experience parties or even Nyzul Isle. In those cases though, what held SCH back was the lack of Haste. Fast-forward to “the Age of Abyssea” and the level 90 cap, the lines have blurred and placement has shifted. WHMs are pretty much required and SCHs and RDMs are struggling to keep up with the healing load. DDs have TONs of HP that need to be healed and damage is exceeding Cure IV. This is where I agree with you, SCH and RDM need something to help them keep up, but neither should shadow WHM because those jobs are hybrids and can bring other things to the table in addition to healing. However, handing Cure V to both mages would bring us back to the one tier separation and potentially displace WHM (I wanted to mention what WHM does have, but that’d make this longer).

Many people like to use the “but WHM has Cure VI argument!;” however, many WHMs (check the forum) agree that Cure VI is not very MP efficient. My Cure V heals about 1000-1100 on average and Cure VI is about 1400-1500, but the MP price is 122 and 205 respectively with Light Arts. In fact, most of the time Cure VI will over cure and waste MP. Couple that the fact that outside of Abyssea, Cure VI isn’t really necessary because most DDs don’t have the HP to warrant its use nor are they taking that amount of damage (similar to Cure V pre-Abyssea). Even with all the Refresh atma that we have available, Cure VI is usually a backup for when Cure V is down and the situation calls for it. Basically, it’s gone from Cure III spam with Cure V as backup to Cure V spam with Cure VI as backup.

Since this is starting to become a wall of text, I’ll cut it short but I have other talking points. If someone sparks one of my other talking points I’ll post my perspective on it, but I hope this can be a constructive discussion. My other points revolve around SCHs stratagems vs. WHMs JAs, Cure potency, and Divine magic triggers, but that could be lengthy… Overall, I agree something needs to be done, but what exactly still eludes me, so I’d like to see what others think. Also, we can’t ignore the world outside of Abyssea because there is still a chance that SE will create events outside again without atma.

Summary (TL: DR): SCH and RDM need something to improve their healing capabilities. However, handing Cure V without some check and balances would bring us back to the days where there was only one tier of separation between WHMs and the other mages. Cure VI isn’t as powerful as it appears due to its inefficiency and being unnecessary out of Abyssea.

P.S. to Miera: Sorry, but I noticed what you said about Healing skill and wanted to correct something. SCH only has a D in healing when Light Arts is not activated, but that skill jumps to a B+ (+15 skill with AF1 legs). Healing magic skill doesn’t have as large of an effect on Cure spells though after a certain point. Cure potency and MND will do a lot more for Cure spells than Healing Magic skill after the cap has been reached.

[Momotarotaru]

Double post sorry -.-

[Momotarotaru]

Hey momo how have you been lately?

well busy with Real life sorry for not reply faster (just see your messsage) So I have not on much lately.

I am pretty much happy with SCH.
in my opinion 1. SCH need to have Helix II and more effective Dot method (current version is too slow)
2. SCH main or /SCH need to cast faster a bit, Seem like it very slow compare to all mage in fast cast area now.
3. SCH need Cure V to be best 2nd healer in game. (Of course WHM should get Curaga V too).

[Jomen]

I only read the first two pages so I'll make a statement using those.

Basically, the argument about Cure V is a very valid one. We need it, we are not the 4th or the 3rd best healers in the game but the second best. Second only to WHM, so why wouldn't we get Cure V since when no one can find a whm they ask a SCH next? But atm the moment, we have problems healing correctly? I don't think so. Use rapture in combination with the af3 and some cure potency (I have a partially finished cure staff) and your cure IVs will reach 800hp healed easy. Yes, cure V and VI can cure much more but for the time being, we have to make due with what we have ^^. That said, we are the second best healers in the game, the second best enfeeblers, the second best nukers. Which all in all, makes us better then every other magician in the game over all. Transitive property and all that haha.

That said, we need a bump in magic. They need to adjust the grimoires to push us to an A now instead of B+. It can even be A- but that would at least get us closer to being at the lvl of healing, nuking, or enfeebling that the big three are at.

On the subject of nuking, I can easily outnuke lolblms but the well geared ones can double and sometimes triple my 2.5k nukes. Yes triple, dude on my server was doing 7.5k blizz Vs regularly ; ;. Anyways, to combat this, we definitely need a speed increase and a mab boost. We got some minor ones but then our traits became more associated with Clear Mind rather than boosts to cure potency or mab. I was thinking something along the lines of:

-Cure potency under White arts: +2% every 10 lvls.
-MAB under dark arts: +2mab/macc every 10 lvls
So at lvl 90 we'd be at 18% cure potency and +18 mab/macc under our grimoires. No, this is not overpowered. WHMs can hit 50%+ cure potency and BLMS can hit 50+ mab. Macc not so much haha. I feel like this would not get us to their lvls but very close to being able to nip at their heels and make them feel pressure.

Now for some things I thought up.
Spells:
-One that nulls enmity direction. As in instead of raising or lowering it makes the enmity stay constant so that no matter the action someone takes, the enmity will stay the same. Put it on a high recast to balance it and make it target the monster. Duration 1 min.
- Give us the tier I-III gas in some form. BLM has received Jas which are essentially a new form of ga. Which means they'll probably be getting a ja II from merits or some other form in addition to ga IVs and meteor. I don't think giving us the other gas will hurt much.
- Cure V, Regen IV, the basic enfeebling series. I can't tell you how dumb it is that we don't get paralyze, gravity, dia, and the others. SCHs were mages built on battle strategy during the crystal wars....so why wouldn't they learn how to use spells that enfeeble at a basic level?

Abilities/traits:
-Elemental celerity
-more strat. charges
-a strategm that reduces enmity generation for the next black or white spell
-a strategm that allows you to use two charges to double an effect. Ex: stack the effect of rapture to do a 100% increase on a cure IV

~Jo

[Fetus]

I only read the first two pages so I'll make a statement using those.

lol. Way to stay informed.

Basically, the argument about Cure V is a very valid one. We need it, we are not the 4th or the 3rd best healers in the game but the second best. Second only to WHM, so why wouldn't we get Cure V since when no one can find a whm they ask a SCH next? But atm the moment, we have problems healing correctly? I don't think so. Use rapture in combination with the af3 and some cure potency (I have a partially finished cure staff) and your cure IVs will reach 800hp healed easy. Yes, cure V and VI can cure much more but for the time being, we have to make due with what we have ^^. That said, we are the second best healers in the game, the second best enfeeblers, the second best nukers. Which all in all, makes us better then every other magician in the game over all. Transitive property and all that haha.

How many times outside of Abyssea have you actually needed Cure V? If you're having trouble keeping up Stoneskin, Phalanx and/or Regen III on your party, Cure V isn't going to magically fix your lack of skill and Stratagem/MP management. I'm really wondering how you gauge that SCH is "second best" about everything. Game is situational and it's dumb that people keep wanting to rank jobs like it actually means something.

That said, we need a bump in magic. They need to adjust the grimoires to push us to an A now instead of B+. It can even be A- but that would at least get us closer to being at the lvl of healing, nuking, or enfeebling that the big three are at.

Skill means something?

On the subject of nuking, I can easily outnuke lolblms but the well geared ones can double and sometimes triple my 2.5k nukes. Yes triple, dude on my server was doing 7.5k blizz Vs regularly ; ;. Anyways, to combat this, we definitely need a speed increase and a mab boost. We got some minor ones but then our traits became more associated with Clear Mind rather than boosts to cure potency or mab. I was thinking something along the lines of:

-Cure potency under White arts: +2% every 10 lvls.
-MAB under dark arts: +2mab/macc every 10 lvls
So at lvl 90 we'd be at 18% cure potency and +18 mab/macc under our grimoires. No, this is not overpowered. WHMs can hit 50%+ cure potency and BLMS can hit 50+ mab. Macc not so much haha. I feel like this would not get us to their lvls but very close to being able to nip at their heels and make them feel pressure.

No, no, no. Are you talking about nuking inside or outside of Abyssea. Because if you're only doing ~2.5K inside of Abyssea, you're doing something wrong. That's weaksauce. You want to cast faster? Use Alacrity. You want more damage? Use Ebullience. Jesus, it's like you people forget that SCH has Stratagems to use. You people keep demanding that Light Arts and Dark Arts get native bonuses added to them. You seem to forget they already do. Casting/recasting time reduction and MP cost reduction isn't good enough? If you want more, more, more then sub /RDM. More Fast Cast and at least then you'll be getting some Magic Attack Bonus. And if your proposed ideas "would not get us to their level" of skill, then why bother at all? Isn't that the whole point of your endless complaining and demands? To turn SCH into WHM and BLM. Oh, wait...

Now for some things I thought up.
Spells:
-One that nulls enmity direction. As in instead of raising or lowering it makes the enmity stay constant so that no matter the action someone takes, the enmity will stay the same. Put it on a high recast to balance it and make it target the monster. Duration 1 min.

Uh... provide an example of when this will ever be more useful than just using the spells we already have to increase/decrease enmity.

- Give us the tier I-III gas in some form. BLM has received Jas which are essentially a new form of ga. Which means they'll probably be getting a ja II from merits or some other form in addition to ga IVs and meteor. I don't think giving us the other gas will hurt much.

You have no idea what new spells or merits will be available to BLM. Furthermore, if we were to extend the parameters of that idea, we should also get Curaga spells. If you want to play with Curaga, then go play WHM. Or use Accession and any Cure spell. And even if you had access to elemental -ga spells, what use would they be? Oh boy, you can trigger grellow !! in Abyssea. Who cares. Get a BLM to do it. It's not like there aren't 200 online at any given moment, anyway.

- Cure V, Regen IV, the basic enfeebling series. I can't tell you how dumb it is that we don't get paralyze, gravity, dia, and the others. SCHs were mages built on battle strategy during the crystal wars....so why wouldn't they learn how to use spells that enfeeble at a basic level?

You want Paralyze, Gravity, Dia, etc.? Then sub /RDM. Wow, fixed. Cure V, Regen IV... whatever. It's not like SCH actually needs either.

Abilities/traits:
-Elemental celerity
-more strat. charges
-a strategm that reduces enmity generation for the next black or white spell
-a strategm that allows you to use two charges to double an effect. Ex: stack the effect of rapture to do a 100% increase on a cure IV

If you want Elemental Celerity so bad, go play BLM. 5 Stratagem charges on a ridiculously low recast timer isn't good enough? A stratagem that reduces enmity on the next spell... Do you even have SCH at 75+? Have you even looked at SCH merits before?? Lastly, we already have stratagems that enhance potency. Use them.

I'm starting to wonder if you even have SCH leveled?

[Siiri]

No, no, no. Are you talking about nuking inside or outside of Abyssea. Because if you're only doing ~2.5K inside of Abyssea, you're doing something wrong. That's weaksauce. You want to cast faster? Use Alacrity. You want more damage? Use Ebullience. Jesus, it's like you people forget that SCH has Stratagems to use. You people keep demanding that Light Arts and Dark Arts get native bonuses added to them. You seem to forget they already do. Casting/recasting time reduction and MP cost reduction isn't good enough? If you want more, more, more then sub /RDM. More Fast Cast and at least then you'll be getting some Magic Attack Bonus.

I think Fetus makes a good point here. Scholar already gets Magic Attack Bonus II if it is subbing red mage. Magic Attack bonus II is +24. Black Mage only gets +36 Magic Attack Bonus from MAB V. I am sure most of us realize MAB traits do not stack. So are people suggesting that Dark Arts get a MAB trait independent of the I-V that stacks with sub job? If so, using Hideka example of +16 through dark arts and +24 through red mage they now have +40, 4 more than Black Mage gets. Since scholar uses strategms beyond MAB to enhance the damage of their nukes, giving them more MAB than Black Mage probably isn't a realistic suggestion. If its not going to stack with sub job why not just give Scholar the trait MAB I at 45 and MAB II at 90 instead of making it overly complicated. That would allow some MAB if for some reason a scholar wanted to use a /ninja sub. I just don't think adding Magic Attack bonus is particularly innovative.

I personally would like to see scholar fleshed out to a more unique role. They share a lot with other mages, which is fine, but think some of the more unique ideas would be more worthwhile. I always thought scholar being more like Rambus's idea of a corsair as a mage with a lot of unique spells to bring to a group.

I thought more should be done with the weather line of spells besides just buffing damage. Also, the Helixes could have been expanded to fill more roles. It seems a lot of scholars just want to be Black Mage, part II becaue they got bored with black mage, and that disappoints me, because scholar can be so much more. Asking for strategms to AOE nukes and more MAB seems pretty pointless. Scholar is supposed to be a strategist, not just brute damage. Definitely the skillchain idea SE has pushed the last couple updates is a something different that is fairly powerful and seems fun.

[Ordoric]

Yes Sch needs something to distingush sch from blm whm and rdm. however they are military stratagiest emnity +/- spells are useful. stoneskin and blink where niceseeing the other 2 jobs got them naturaly cure 5 yes that would be very nice however it would also need to be added to pld and there for rdm, tweak modus verits and helix spells yes or augment storm spells the absorb simmilar effects or raise the resist rate. we mages need to work together and use our skills and abilitys to enhance partys and dfend agenst attack.

[hideka]

not even gonna lie fetus, the fact that you even suggested getting SCH's merit strategems made me want to cry >_> costing 2 strategems to get a few points lower on enmity is NOT worth it... specially in abyssea lol >_>

[Hiroshiko]

not even gonna lie fetus, the fact that you even suggested getting SCH's merit strategems made me want to cry >_> costing 2 strategems to get a few points lower on enmity is NOT worth it... specially in abyssea lol >_>

I don't think Fetus was suggesting getting them, but was merely pointing out that we already have those effects. Therefore, was no need for a suggestion for the same effect. An adjustment maybe, but it's not a novel idea.

[Rambus]

The Cure V issue still worries me a bit. I don’t totally disagree with you, but I feel that many people have overlooked the implications of handing SCH (and RDM too) Cure V without some way of balancing it. I have both WHM and SCH so that’s my comparison point (I know enough about RDM, but not much from experience). Personally, I always preferred healing on WHM just because it was more natural to me, but that aside, SCH always had a lot of tools to improve their healing abilities and have only gained more over the updates.

My issue with Cure V is that before Abyssea, there was only one tier separation between WHMs and the other “main healers” (SCH and RDM). Both SCH and RDM had tools that made them more efficient at healing and thus more desirable in most situations. Even with /SCH, WHMs were sometimes second to RDMs when it came to healing because Cure V (and a lot of the other tools WHM had) wasn’t necessary for things such as experience parties or even Nyzul Isle. In those cases though, what held SCH back was the lack of Haste. Fast-forward to “the Age of Abyssea” and the level 90 cap, the lines have blurred and placement has shifted. WHMs are pretty much required and SCHs and RDMs are struggling to keep up with the healing load. DDs have TONs of HP that need to be healed and damage is exceeding Cure IV. This is where I agree with you, SCH and RDM need something to help them keep up, but neither should shadow WHM because those jobs are hybrids and can bring other things to the table in addition to healing. However, handing Cure V to both mages would bring us back to the one tier separation and potentially displace WHM (I wanted to mention what WHM does have, but that’d make this longer).

Many people like to use the “but WHM has Cure VI argument!;” however, many WHMs (check the forum) agree that Cure VI is not very MP efficient. My Cure V heals about 1000-1100 on average and Cure VI is about 1400-1500, but the MP price is 122 and 205 respectively with Light Arts. In fact, most of the time Cure VI will over cure and waste MP. Couple that the fact that outside of Abyssea, Cure VI isn’t really necessary because most DDs don’t have the HP to warrant its use nor are they taking that amount of damage (similar to Cure V pre-Abyssea). Even with all the Refresh atma that we have available, Cure VI is usually a backup for when Cure V is down and the situation calls for it. Basically, it’s gone from Cure III spam with Cure V as backup to Cure V spam with Cure VI as backup.

Since this is starting to become a wall of text, I’ll cut it short but I have other talking points. If someone sparks one of my other talking points I’ll post my perspective on it, but I hope this can be a constructive discussion. My other points revolve around SCHs stratagems vs. WHMs JAs, Cure potency, and Divine magic triggers, but that could be lengthy… Overall, I agree something needs to be done, but what exactly still eludes me, so I’d like to see what others think. Also, we can’t ignore the world outside of Abyssea because there is still a chance that SE will create events outside again without atma.

Summary (TL: DR): SCH and RDM need something to improve their healing capabilities. However, handing Cure V without some check and balances would bring us back to the days where there was only one tier of separation between WHMs and the other mages. Cure VI isn’t as powerful as it appears due to its inefficiency and being unnecessary out of Abyssea.

P.S. to Miera: Sorry, but I noticed what you said about Healing skill and wanted to correct something. SCH only has a D in healing when Light Arts is not activated, but that skill jumps to a B+ (+15 skill with AF1 legs). Healing magic skill doesn’t have as large of an effect on Cure spells though after a certain point. Cure potency and MND will do a lot more for Cure spells than Healing Magic skill after the cap has been reached.

I read though your post and i saw RDM > whm in Nyzul Isle. I was so annoyed with RDMs in Nyzul Isle due to lacking HPS I started to refuse to go to it without a WHM. I went to WHM to nyzul isle if i had too and my SCH would never touch the event since it was supar like RDM is for curing and nuking wasn't needed.

I do agree cure VI needs rebalancing with RDM,PLD, SCH getting cure V. you also have to consider this. Jobs as a curing main should not have the same max cure as /whm or /rdm at 99. YOU HAVE to give them those cures otherwise your suck on 75 mindset. The other Solution is make healing skill mean something to able to pop out 600 ish cure IVs as base with healing skill we have at 90.

I will agree in getting a form of Elemental celerity. it could be less potent then the BLM's though, plus it would fair better on SCH vs RDM. We are suppose to nuke better then RDM and they get nuke spells that we need Addendum: Black.


Siiri this is the first time I agree with you on something. yes I agree that MAB to dark arts is a bit much. I am happy with our damage, but like others said in other threads (guess I am loosing track with these threads) we need more uniqueness. fusion spells for level 3 scs and so on would be nice.