How can SE make the Redmage frontline job?

[Darka]

(TP_B*Delay_A)/(TP_A*Delay_B)*100 will show you the ws frequency increase of adding Dual Wield vs the original Delay/TP gain. The only time DW hinders performance is when you're relying on OaX since it slows the swinging. But even then, the gains are higher than 10% DA from /WAR.

Same scenario as before, 200 Delay weapon, and 2*200 Delay Weapons.

Delay A = 200
TP A = 5.4

Delay B (after factoring DW3) = 300
TP B = 4.7

4.7*200 = 940
5.4*300 = 1620

floor(940/1620)*100 = 58% increase in WS frequency. That's from 0 Dual Wield to 35%
DA% increase in WS frequency is 10/100*100 = 10% assuming you're adding 10 onto a value of 0.

Dual Wield stomps all over DA in significant additives.

0 - 180 5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 1.5 / 180]
181 - 450 5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 6.5 / 270]

The above are the two values that'll apply Dual Wielding. You won't see a huge reduction in TP/hit unless your combined Delay falls below the previous bracket, in this case <180.

Edit: Sanguine Blade is pretty nice honestly.

[Supersun]

25% Dual Wield increases your TP gain by 58% percent...

Let's just think about what you just said there

25% haste increases your WS frequency by 33%

So in essence you are saying that Dual Wield is nearly TWICE as potent as haste, which does NOT reduce your TP in return to the reduced reduction, compared to Dual Wield which DOES reduce your TP in return for that reduction.

...I'm going to go out on a limb here and say there's an error with your math.

Delay A = 200
TP A = 5.4

Delay B (after factoring DW3) = 150
(150 not 300. Yes, 25% of 400 is 300, BUT Dual Wield does NOT use the combined delay of both weapons to calculate TP. It instead averages it between your two hands, so it calculates it as if you had 2 150 delay weapons.)
TP B = 4.7

4.7*200 = 940
5.4*150 = 810

floor(940/810) = 16% increase in WS frequency. That's from 0 Dual Wield to 25%(I think you meant 25% instead of 35%)
DA% increase in WS frequency is 10/100*100 = 10% assuming you're adding 10 onto a value of 0.

16% is a lot closer then 10% now isn't it. And you will find that the higher your delays get the smaller that gap becomes until about 218*2 (the lowest delay high level sword) where that gap is nearly nonexistant. Continuing to add delay will only give Double Attack a higher value then Duel Wield.

Once again though, suppamomi does tend to keep Dual Wield in style for longer if you have 1.

[Darka]

Oh whoops, haha I should've noticed that. I must've had calc left as NIN main or something and used 35%. I know it doesn't use the combined delay from two weapons, or the TP would've been like 10+/hit or something ridiculous, I /2 for TP/hit but I forgot to /2 there. Even if the /NIN starts losing slightly in WS frequency, you can't not account for the fact of two weapons, and more hits in a similar space of time.

[Duelle]

Ok, so to summarize the possibilities:

- RDM-exclusive elemental weapon skill, allowing emphasis on /WAR with Fencer and DA in mind
- Aura versions of refresh/haste
- Revamp to split RDM into various roles within the class
- Enspells buffed

Did I miss anything? We should probably get the OP to update the thread or something, I guess.

[Supersun]

Oh whoops, haha I should've noticed that. I must've had calc left as NIN main or something and used 35%. I know it doesn't use the combined delay from two weapons, or the TP would've been like 10+/hit or something ridiculous, I /2 for TP/hit but I forgot to /2 there. Even if the /NIN starts losing slightly in WS frequency, you can't not account for the fact of two weapons, and more hits in a similar space of time.

Well yea, Double attack alone doesn't won't even come close to the +30%ish increase to DoT, but another of War's abilities will, Berserk. Anything that the Red Mage isn't capping pDIF on (ie everything) Berserk will close the gap quite a bit at Berserk is generally estimated to be a +30% DoT increase while it's active. Yeah it's only active 3/5ths of the time, but between double attack and berserk the difference becomes a lot smaller. Assuming Berserk adds +30% damage for 3/5ths of the time and Double Attack adds +10% damage on top of that we get an average of...

(143%)(3/5) + (110%)(2/5) =
85.8% + 44% = 129.8%

So /war will likely give you a +29.8% increase to your physical DoT
/nin will give a +33% increase to your physical DoT (or +42% with a suppa)

Of course this is slightly even more skewed in /nins favor since Enspells only receive a +10% increase from /war while receiving the full bonus from /nin. But the difference may be small enough that the sub you use is entirely situational. Really the main point I'm trying to address though is that with a strong elemental WS native to Red Mage, Red Mage can feasibly melee even with a mage sub in place, because as it stands now a naked monk can probably out damage a Rdm with a mage sub in melee.

[Windblade]

But the difference may be small enough that the sub you use is entirely situational. Really the main point I'm trying to address though is that with a strong elemental WS native to Red Mage, Red Mage can feasibly melee even with a mage sub in place, because as it stands now a naked monk can probably out damage a Rdm with a mage sub in melee.

The point is that it takes red mage so LONG to kill anything without good weapon skills. So if we're going for experience points, it does take longer to level. Now if we got experience points based on both how long we survive and how long we fight, then it wouldn't bother me so much. If a SMN can drop three mobs in the time it takes a RDM to solo one, why should the RDM only get 1/3 the experience?

[shantaru]

give the redmages refresh + haste passive job trait works like aura easy answer

well the hard path as rdm used to be the much effort job always gimped really till maxes. it had its uses in past. now the future of rdm is rdm/nin as i do. with max heal set macro flow to quickly heal 929 plus cure iv's the the new fascast speed (hat 119 af1 etc, relic body fc+12 and accessories) one need to aquisition of the 4/5 fascast+5 hagondes set and both fascast earrings (1 from (sea ABCoins NPC and the other from abyssea) when one multi macro flows this set to cast NI and ITCHi recast is 12 seconds over cast on itchi and ni is 21 at max all hasted with new gears also for recast access. i posted some new jA x2 and haste II needed to really make RDM frontline. but defense is alrady obtainable and so far parsing with BRD in party as rdm/nin on 119+ diff SCkrest bcnm20 i parsed 70k + in 12 min win. that not as good as it should be but it has potential as a GREAT and REAL fun self supporting and others in party melee job (THAT SHOULD BE!!) with haste II and both JA's ENDOW and DUEALaga attack boost based on enhancing magic gear equiped /500 cap for effect and duration on all 3. a max rdm would have the cap of this 3 new adds at 500 like everything. the 2 AOE job abilities i suggest called #1 ENDOW lets the rdm cast the gains spells or temper DA chance rate 20% at 500 skill) under composure it would last much longer than 2.5 min on a 5 min JA resuse timer. #2 DUELaga is JA aoe again based on 500 skill cap to enhance all members in AOE range with attack boost) again at 500 wouldnt last much more than 2.5 min making the party wait 2.5 for RDM to once again use. desireable YES to all both and Haste II single targeted. excaliber 119 and SUBhand 119 burmamenk'ah or 119 aahm sabr and its on like a big DONG! hit me up and waht ya think???? ive got all subjobs like /blm /dnc /sum from old 75 days in fafnir 18 alliance im old school 11 years in. but even a rdm/blm can rock this not in the melee circle but run in DUELAGA- gain-str to all and let whm boost dex (criticals). i see this as rdm all the way back in the game with 3 new ideas simple and sweet and the rest you gotta earn it still!!!!!!!!

[Demonjustin]

Shan... please. Sentences, and paragraphs. I want to read what you say, but I can't do it in that form.

[shantaru]

hard to say so many times over in different posts. i posted it in outline form on RDM and HASTE II (posted) as a reply to his comment. go read that it more line by line and pretty simple to read. sorry i go in circles but this stuff is gold for us if se will do it and NO!!!! becoming the melee RDM/nin will not be easy but with this new additions to RDM i am living proof that RDM rocks already RDM/nin

[Demonjustin]

I am quite the RDM myself, and often use RDM/NIN, that is part of why I would love to read your posts. I just find it impossible to read them without them being broken up into smaller bits. I go to try to read them but they look like such a wall of words thrown together in a way that my migraines I already have only get worse before I get to start reading let alone during the reading itself.