How can SE make the Redmage frontline job?

[Frost]

One could argue the "Balance" you request could be achieved via your subjob choice.
No, read that again. It is in fact true.

RedMAGES are only really lopsided as a MAGE because YOU chose a MAGE sub. Everything you're asking for here could be attained by subbing War, Dark, or even Nin.

Is it optimal? No, not at all.

But a Melee Rdm hold their own compared to a 'normal' melee about as much as comparing a Rdm healer to Whm, or a Rdm nuker to Blm. Asking for a "Melee Update" is kind of a head scratcher, when you got so many better tools at your disposal, even to be the proverbial "DD" that you say is lacking. (I say that because you seem to forget "DD" stands for "Damage Dealer" and if you weren't a relevant "DD" then what do you call your Nukes?)

One could argue (very accurately) what you guys ask for is for your job to be Blu. At which point I would say, just level Blu. It literally does EVERYTHING a Rdm typically wants Rdm to be when they aren't satisfied with how Rdm is.

But the one thing that makes Rdm as a Rdm shine is it's greatest assets: Rdm's fast cast and enfeebling skill/spells. You can literally "Bore a mob to death" with DoT's; or Nukes trading off with any of the following: bind, break, sleep, sleep II, sleepga, stun, etc... And your position in parties is guaranteed for those same reasons, so how exactly are you deficient again? Because you can't poke shit with your sword? Really? You're one of the most vital jobs in the game, and you're irritated you're not more useful?

I agree with the general desires of both sides of this argument however. On the one side, Bigboy's completely right, strengthening anything on Rdm brings back an imbalance, yet everyone else is right the job has grown quite stale doing the same thing, and really could use an update other than just another tier of spells.

But....

Just because you don't play a certain way, doesn't mean that certain way doesn't doesn't exist. Changing your job too drastically can render other jobs obsolete. If the Rdm was a melee as well as healer, nuker and enfeebler, why invite anything else? Because everything else is still better? Then you're with the same problem before, no change. If you surpass an actual melee, you've removed them from the game. Make sense?

As with other threads, no one is really seeking balance so much as they are seeking absolute dominance, and Rdms are especially guilty of that.

[Supersun]

But a Melee Rdm hold their own compared to a 'normal' melee about as much as comparing a Rdm healer to Whm, or a Rdm nuker to Blm. Asking for a "Melee Update" is kind of a head scratcher, when you got so many better tools at your disposal.

By comparing a Rdm healer to a Whm you mean doesn't hold a candle and fails miserably.

Sure Rdms, are decent with nukes, but then again, our nukes are about the ONLY thing that has improved pushing past 75.

And isn't it natural for the "Jack of all trades" to ask for a buff where we are currently weakest (and by a good margin from the top as well)

Really, if you are saying that all we are asking for is SUPER SAIYAN DAMAGE HAX0RS you clearly haven't been following the discussion about HOW SE can make Rdm a frontline melee job.

Really, I've tested out more ways for Red Mage to melee then just someone that sees enspells and auto decides that /nin + OaX is the way to go (Not saying it isn't, /nin is certainly the best way atm), but the more time I spend meleeing on Red Mage the more and more I see the stupidest shit get in the way.

I mean what other job do you see practically being forced to main hand a weapon that SE has practically neglected for the job (Oh right, Drk, and there's a reason they are receiving the super update soon)

We aren't asking to become the super job that heals better then a white mage, nukes better then a black mage, DDs better then a warrior, and tanks better then a Nin/Mnk/Pld (with Ochain). We are just asking them to actually start making SENSE with the job. I mean, Shield Mastery. Native Aeolian Edge but not Sanguine Blade? Losing the ability to wear newer Doublets?

When you get down to it the choices the new SE devs have made pretty much indirectly kicked Rdm Melee in the balls whether physically or in spirit. They name a new melee trait Fencer and first give it to...the Axe wielding jobs, right because fencing with axes makes sense, but fear not next update...brd now gets it. BRD, a job that quite frankly melees about as effectively as us. Remind me what's the name of our JSE accessories and what weapon type we specialize in?

What's coming next update? The ability to augment certain Rare/Ex items, yay, too bad that it likely won't work on already augmented armor like the 3 add on expansion armors that Rdm practically needs to melee. You know what job really makes off like a bandit with augmenting Rare/Ex armors? Once again Brd, The ability to augment Kitty pants and likely Hetacomb armor is going to give it a huge advantage.

So, really, White Mage already curb stomps any non-CDC Red Mage, and as of next update any debate between Brd and Rdm will likely go out the window as well with Brds new augmented super powered Hetacomb gear.

I think it's well within our rights to ask for a melee update when Whms and Brds start out meleeing us.

[Doombringer]

i dunno man, i've been meleeing on rdm since this game came out and i can honestly say it's gotten steadily worse as time went by. (and that's WITH war/drk/nin/blu/pld for subs)

for a long time i felt like all i was really missing was a good ws when subbing nin or something to do with my left hand when subbing not nin, and that was "close enough" for me to be satisfied. sure i had hauberk envy, along with several other things, but i never expected to be "as good" just "within striking distance"

but the "rules" have kept changing and changing. and rdm has been drifting further and further from the job i was sold on all those years ago.

toa was when it really got bad. before that rdm melee was a debate. there might be one a-hole in a pt that would flip out but there'd be one or 2 others that saw things my way. plus back then ppl would invite an rdm AND a whm to the SAME pt.. i know, insane right?

if i wanted to be a whm i'd have chosen whm. i'll cure you if you're bleeding, i like having that in my back pocket JiC, but i refuse to sit in the corner and spam cure4 upon cure4 into infinity.

then spampage pts happened and my old friends "the whm" and "the tank" were gone, and i'm expected to solo heal 3-4 spamming dd's? pass, i was already 75 at this point, so i just solo'd most of my merits.

then the 2hander update happens and suddenly everybody without a 2handed weapon is gimp? guess who doesn't have a 2handed weapon? rdm... but then to make it even worse, they give thf dnc and blu duel wield, AND give warrior, bst and BARD fencer. leaving rdm at the very bottom melee tier, stuck using 1handed weapons without any type of native job trait to buff them. skill/trait wise rdm is now at about pld and whm lvl. oh but wait. pld and whm get there good ws' natively, so they can sub whatever they need to.

you could say rdm has evisceration natively, except rdm has exactly TWO daggers above lvl 75! what weapons do we get? swords.. what sword ws' do we get? death blossom.... yah.. death blossom is rdms best ws without subbing war/pld/blu/drk, or holding an almace. (blu... why blu? wtf?! that's just an insult.)

and while THIS has been happening, rdm's normal melee gear has gotten worse and worse relative to any respected dd, hell even next to a thf, a dancer, or even a bard...

lets just say that over the years i've been spending more and more time on my pld or warrior, as opposed to my rdm. my first 75 and the job i still consider my main, because i can't stand playing it in the state it's in. who knows, maybe once i finish my almace i'll get some of that spark back. but even if it ends up being everything i dream it will be, that still won't solve the problem with the job.


TL;DR? i don't expect rdm to be as good a tank or melee as a real tank or melee, but i also feel that it deserves to be close enough to warrant consideration, as opposed to ridicule. i am SO tired of watching rdm go steadily down the same boring, and imo, WRONG path. i refuse to play WHM-1

[Frost]

Well by that logic, Brds and Whms should get a variety of Tier IV nukes and Dark Magic skill!

Dude, if you try to make sense of SE, your head's going to explode. Go look up Ranger relic pants man, 10 Parry skill on a job that has no native parry skill....

RDM is on a lot of H2H weapons, Bows and Staves... As well as Possesses a native Divine skill, yet no native divine magic. Does that mean they should be Monk/Ranjer hybrids and have access to Banish I-IV?

Rdm ironically is the only job that's consistently made sense. You want "direction" and it's staring you right in the face. SE wants you to be a mage, a support mage, one that has nukes.

Reminds me of the "Priest in the Quicksand".

Priest sinking in quicksand and along comes an explorer.
The explorer asks "Do you need help?"
To which the priest responds, "No, the lord will save me."
The priest sinks further, and again he's visited, this time by an archaeologist.
The archaeologist asks as well, "Do you need help?"
And the priest again waves him off, "No I will be ok, the lord will save me."
Now the priest is up to his neck in quicksand, and a soldier wanders by.
The soldier drops to the ground and reaches out and tries to get the priest to take his hand.
"I'm ok," says the priest, "the good lord will save me."
Those were the last words of the priest as he sank into the quicksand and died.
Once in heaven he has the opportunity to speak with god, "Lord, why didn't you save me?"
To which god responds, "You kidding me? I sent you an explorer, an archaeologist, and a soldier..."

Point being, if you see SE neglecting your melee side, maybe you're up to your ears in quicksand.

Happy Easter.

[Doombringer]

frost.. you kinda just described sch.. "a support mage. one that has nukes" see the problem here? sch has better healing abilities, better nukes, and now thanks to atmas, nearly as good staying power. they are admittedly weaker enfeeblers, and weaker melees.. BUT.. enfeebs are mitigated nowadays since every nm is immune to most enfeebs, and every non nm lives about 10-15 seconds. (sch buffing abilities are debateable, they CAN aeo phalanx/haste/stoneskin/enspell with the right sub.. i'd say that's a strong point in there favor, but rdm can to if it subs sch, so this one sorta ends up a wash.)

so that leaves us with melee... so, we're here talkin' about melee.

[Supersun]

Because if SE though that Rdm melee should be abandoned completely they wouldn't have given us Composure and Enspell IIs. Mind you they weren't exactly implemented in the best ways but then again, that was a time when the majority of the player base though we were overpowered because we had the big 4 of healing, convert, refresh, haste, and cures.

Not to mention that 3 of those were originally added to help Rdm melee in the first place since Rdms kept running out of MP while meleeing since they couldn't rest, but were implemented poorly.

And while our healing was definitely overpowered during the ToA era and Rdm was pigeonholed into the healing role we certainly aren't in that spot anymore. The longevity that let us heal exclusively is now mostly subbable with the entire big 4 being available with /Rdm49 and Rdm healing is isn't even taken seriously anymore which is probably a good thing since every job will have Rdms healing power by 99 by just subbing the job.

So if we aren't allowed to melee where does that leave us? The white/black magic hybrid that uses them less effectively then sch? There's really only 2 ways that we could be different then Sch and SE has deemed BOTH of those ways as not correct.

We could enfeeble, but what good is being the master of enfeebling when everything worth enfeebling comes factory default immune? And anything else that we can enfeeble either dies too fast to matter or comes in so large of number other jobs out perform us just because they have AoE versions.

And if you say Enhancing then clearly YOU are the one not seeing SE's direction since 90% of our buffs are self target only. Really, the only exceptions are Protect and Shell (which have AoE versions we don't have), and Haste and Refresh (we do have more options with /sch but pretty much all of those options Sch/Rdm can use as well with way more charges then we have). How many does Whm have that can be used on the party, not even going to bother counting since it's way too many. Even Sch has been getting more buffs that can be used on the party, and what new enhancing spell did they happen to get...Regain...Yes, that's right, Scholar has received more melee buffs then Red Mage post 75 with their Regain spell and Occult Acumen (not like that one matters that much though due to staff switching, but it is still a melee buff none the less)

So If Sch is the job that can Heal/Nuke/and Enhance better then us (I'd give enhancing to them, they get mot of our enhancing spells with sub, plus more, like storm spells, and by 99 it'll be undebatable once they can /Rdm and get haste unless something else changes) where does that exactly leave us if we can't melee. The worthless enfeebling mage that is essentially only invited to Refresh II whore? We discuss ways to let Rdm melee because SE clearly DOESN'T have a direction for Rdm otherwise. I mean Shield Mastery?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

The fact is RDM is a MELEE Mage, that means we can do both.. Not as good as the natural jobs can IE: We can't heal as well as a WHM, nuke as well as a BLM or DD as well as a WAR which was what RDM was a combination of..... However, when you can not DD better than a WHM, BRD or BLM there is something seriously wrong, no matter how much anyone wants to say that it's acceptable it is NOT.

What makes it even worse is those 3 jobs have better DD equipment than even RDM who is supposed to be able to wear Cloth and Light Armour (of which we have not really gotten since lvl. 50)

[Daniel]

Not a jack of all trades anymore, give it up. Wanna be front line job level nin or mnk. Our mele is good enough to let us solo quickly with good multi-hit weapons, but they are never going to make us competitive with real DD. If they did what would be the point in playing anything else.

[Ophannus]

One question. What makes RDM more qualified to melee or be in the front lines than WHM or BRD? Sure SE calls RDM a hybrid but ignoring what SE says or RDM's past history in other FF games, what does RDM have that makes us potentially a front line job? B sword/Dagger skill? BRD has B skill in dagger too, whm has B in club but they don't complain about meleeing. RDM has enspells? Ok WHM has enlight with Auspice and BRD has minuets but they don't melee. The only melee mage in this game is BLU. RDM's specialty is a debuff/enhancing job that happens to get cure spells and nukes and a stunted rate. SE could have just given us debuffs and buffs only and made that our sole concentration. The cures and nukes we have are bare minimum meant to support main healers and main nukers. Leave the top tier nukes and heals to SCH and WHM since they're backline. I feel the only job qualified to get cure 5 next patch is SCH because they sacrifice melee ability for heightened magic whereas we technically have both. SCH has crap for melee capability so if anything they're more likely to get Cure 5 than us I feel only becuase they're a backline job.

Meleeing is a means to an end and RDM currently has none. BLU melees for TP to self SC. PLD melees to keep hate. RDM CAN melee but on major things we're talking about crappy damage. We can sub NIN but we lose Vorpal blade and have no native crit ws ourselves. The only way I see RDM being marketable as a DD is if they have Almace and a good DEX set, especially next Genkai which will probably have Gain-DEX. I've seen well equipped RDMs deal upwards of 2-3k Chant Du Cygnes in and outside Abyssea, really Almace is the way to go or at least the Badelaire+2.

[Duelle]

Asking for a "Melee Update" is kind of a head scratcher, when you got so many better tools at your disposal, even to be the proverbial "DD" that you say is lacking. (I say that because you seem to forget "DD" stands for "Damage Dealer" and if you weren't a relevant "DD" then what do you call your Nukes?)

So we should forget we're melee mages and just settle for playing BLM -1? I think not. Our swords are there for a reason, soloing and decoration are not it.

One could argue (very accurately) what you guys ask for is for your job to be Blu. At which point I would say, just level Blu. It literally does EVERYTHING a Rdm typically wants Rdm to be when they aren't satisfied with how Rdm is.

BLU wears pointy shoes and uses scimitars. I see no pimp hat or rapier on them. Next.

You're one of the most vital jobs in the game, and you're irritated you're not more useful?

Sleep and crowd control is more BLM territory. Healing has been WHM territory, the TAU merit parties of 4 DD, RDM healer and bard puller notwithstanding. Our sole value since CoP has been refresh, haste and heals. At the cost of our class becoming something rather unpleasant. I'm surprised you're trying to blame us for getting sick of it, really.

Just because you don't play a certain way, doesn't mean that certain way doesn't doesn't exist. Changing your job too drastically can render other jobs obsolete. If the Rdm was a melee as well as healer, nuker and enfeebler, why invite anything else? Because everything else is still better? Then you're with the same problem before, no change. If you surpass an actual melee, you've removed them from the game. Make sense?

I'm starting to get annoyed of this same tired attempt of an argument. To put it simply, it is quite possible and plausiuble to make a hybrid melee-capable in a way that balance is maintained and said melee role is widely accepted by other players. The scenario as it stands is not:

Party Leader: Ok so you're on RDM/<melee sub>.
RDM: Yeah, I'm geared for melee.
Party Leader: OK, I'll start looking for a healer.

And instead is:

Party Leader: You're on RDM/<melee sub>
RDM: Yeah, I'm geared for melee.
Party Leader: ROFL rdm isnt a dd. heal or gtfo.

Again, I wouldn't be a strong proponent of changes to make it happen had I not seen it work before. I know it can be done, and it's more a matter of the developers putting in the time to make it reality.

no one is really seeking balance so much as they are seeking absolute dominance, and Rdms are especially guilty of that.

I'll ask that you please stop accusing the melee camp of something we're NOT asking for. I know those outside the class or the bandwagon jumpers that signed up for the quick invites and gravy train to 75 and merits are happy with RDM spamming cures and refresh, but some of us have wanted more out of this job for years.

One question. What makes RDM more qualified to melee or be in the front lines than WHM or BRD? Sure SE calls RDM a hybrid but ignoring what SE says or RDM's past history in other FF games, what does RDM have that makes us potentially a front line job? B sword/Dagger skill? BRD has B skill in dagger too, whm has B in club but they don't complain about meleeing. RDM has enspells? Ok WHM has enlight with Auspice and BRD has minuets but they don't melee. The only melee mage in this game is BLU. RDM's specialty is a debuff/enhancing job that happens to get cure spells and nukes and a stunted rate. SE could have just given us debuffs and buffs only and made that our sole concentration.

Considering BLU as per FFXI was pulled out of the developers' collective arses, RDM has been the melee mage since FF1.

We're also way past the point where you can design classes to have singular purposes. Mezzing (AKA enfeebling) is too small a role to encompass a whole class. It worked in everquest because at the time the raids were of enough size where you could get away with it, but now it simply won't work (not to mention it'd make a class completely dull). It also does not comply with the trinity of tank, healer and dps.