How can SE make the Redmage frontline job?

[Supersun]

Of course, I don't know if the DA would interact as a straight addition to Joyeuse's 40%, but the above was assumed calculating 68% on the second version and 78% on the third.

It does not. If an OaX effect activates a DA effect cannot. So in this scenario if you have 40% OaT and 28% DA then you will attack twice 56% of the time (OaX checks before DA (not that it matters in this scenario) so the 60% of the time you don't OaT is what the 28% DA is applied to)

Also, /WAR offers nothing for Magic WS

War offers Fencer which gives TP Bonus which for any magical WS with "Damage varies by TP" is a pretty big deal (well comparatively to other subs that don't give you nearly anything for elemental WSs)

Also, yeah /nin does increase WS frequency, but it isn't by that much is it? Since it's a delay reduction and not haste it recalculates how much TP you get based on your new delay which lower delay weapons tend to gain TP faster then higher delay weapons, but I'd be surprised if that difference can beat the added effect of Double Attack from /war.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Er what? They aren't calculated quite the same but both (dual wield and haste) apply to the total delay reduction cap.

[Supersun]

Er what? They aren't calculated quite the same but both (dual wield and haste) apply to the total delay reduction cap.

Yes, but haste does NOT recalculate a new TP value due to the lower delay. If you get 6 TP a hit it doesn't matter how much Haste you add it will always be 6 TP a hit.

Delay reduction on the other hand WILL recalculate your TP. If you have a 600 delay weapon with 50% Delay Reduction you will now gain TP like a 300 delay weapon. Haste will let you swing your 600 delay weapon twice as fast and still keep the 600 delay TP/hit.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Then I misunderstood what you meant, but double attack at 10% isn't going to beat dual wield III.

EDIT: although personally I'd like the option to either not rely on war sub for DA, or not rely on nin sub for dual wield (although considering thief even if we got DW trait which I see as highly unlikely, it'd be T1 at best making it not very useful).

[Supersun]

Then I misunderstood what you meant, but double attack at 10% isn't going to beat dual wield III.

EDIT: although personally I'd like the option to either not rely on war sub for DA, or not rely on nin sub for dual wield (although considering thief even if we got DW trait which I see as highly unlikely, it'd be T1 at best making it not very useful).

Double Attack 10% I would think would beat the WS frequency of Dual Wield at least. Not the DoT obvious, but berserk can close that gap. I would have to check the delay calculations to make sure, there are some screwy formulas.

And if you are asking for /nin and /war not to be the best melee subs...that's not happening.

If you are just asking for them to not be the ONLY SJs that are acceptable to melee in then /sch could still be pretty respectable. As long as an elemental WS isn't Thunder, Light, or Dark, we can equip an Obi and use a storm for the corresponding element which a +10% increase to WS damage certainly isn't bad.

Edit: Alright I did some quickie math and SOMETIMES Dual Wield beats Double Attack for TP gain. Dual Wield will beat double attack if your weapons innately have lower delay. If you have higher delay weapons like the Khanda +2 then Double Attack will be more beneficial. In addition if you have Dual Wield equipment that can also help push things in favor of Dual Wield over Double Attack. For example with a 225 delay weapon /war will beat out /nin using two 225 delay weapons, but if the /nin has a suppamomi then /nin will win instead. On the other hand not even a suppomimi will push /nin over /war with a 252 delay weapon like the Khanda +2 (I didn't check the ACP body). Basically the magic number is 180. If your dual wield reduces the average delay between your 2 weapons well below 180 then /nin will likely win. If it just barely passes 180, then /war will probably win.

[Darka]

Actually DA checks before OaX does, all traits do, QA > TA > DA > OaX.

Yes Dual Wield lowers TP/hit for weapons, but the lower your Delay is already the smaller this reduction is.

DW1 is a 10% reduction, so lets ball park delay from combined weapons at 400. 200/each.

6/seconds per round, 5tp/hit, 10 rounds for 100. Or 60 seconds.

55 seconds for 100 at 90, 51 seconds with Suppanomimi.

/WAR with 10DA (since any other DA gear can be used on /NIN)

19 rounds, costing 62 seconds to hit 100TP.

10% of 19 is 1.9, so we'll just assume you have two DA procs in that time. 56 seconds to hit 100 TP.

Therefore it loses to both /DW3 and /DW3+Suppa. This increase will become larger if you parse further than a minute, along with increasing your DoT from having two weapons.

If you're using swords I'm assuming the elemental skill of choice is Sanguine Blade? It's ftp doesn't change between TP levels, so Fencer isn't doing anything in that regard, besides it's generic +5% crit rate.

[Doombringer]

i think he's saying he wants a NEW magical ws. one powerful enough to at least SOMEWHAT weaken duel wields stranglehold, while at the same time keeping rdm melee at least SALVAGEABLE while using non melee subs (i for one am a hardcore melee rdm, and even I won't bother swinging a sword if i'm subbing whm or something)

if you wanna "gimp" /nin any new ws HAS to be magical as any physical ws gains to much from DW on top of DW's DW-ieness

sanguine blade woulda been close though... if rdm just had native access to it...

[Supersun]

Huh, you are right. My bad, I thought it was the opposite, but I checked and DA/TA do proc before OaX.


Like I said, for low delay weapons dual wield will definitely win and 200 is like Katana small. I mean not even Rapiers are that low. The lowest sword going to be used is the 218 being that new rapier.

Wiki lists that rapier as giving 5.9 TP/hit
With /war and double attack you can generalize that on average you will get 10% more so
5.9*1.1 = 6.49 TP/hit on average

with 25% dual wield (no suppamomi)
218+218 = 436
436*.75(inverse of 25%) = 327
327/2 = 163.5 (per hand average delay)
5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 1.5 / 180] = 4.8625 TP/Hit

so we know that a 218 delay weapon on average gains 6.49 TP/Hit, but that makes it hard to compare since with /nin you are a 163.5 delay weapon that gives 4.8625 TP/hit. What we can do is make them a ratio of TP rate/delay since that should be able to show us which one gains TP faster.

6.49/218 and 4.8625/163.5
Now we can multiply one of the fractions so that their delays are equal. Since we know the second one is just a 25% reduction it's easily enough to divide by the inverse instead of multiply like we did before.

(4.8625/.75)/(163.5/.75) = 6.48/218

So
/war on average gives 6.49 TP/Hit with a 218 delay weapon
/nin would give an equivalent of 6.48 TP/Hit with a 218 weapon

So /war will beat /nin without a suppimomi as long as the average delay of both weapons stays within sword range. a Suppomimi will definitely skew this toward /nin though. Either way without the free +1fTP bonus on physical WSs from /nin, /war becomes a lot more competitive with /nin.


Also, yeah Sanguine Blade doesn't have a fTP and is instead HEAVILY affected by intelligence. The context of this was more the pros and cons of if SE introduced a new Sword Elemental WS that Red mage happened to actually get natively (and most elemental WSs tend to be "Damage varies by TP")

[Alukat]

anyone of u has ever mentioned eva-/def- swords with sub nin in DD pt situations?
magic eva / madef- for nuking pts?
acc-/eva- could be handy for high acc/eva mobs.

[Karbuncle]

Shame they can't give us a Rapier with this kind of delay higher up.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/17647/aramiss-rapier

202 Delay!