Please Rework "FULL BREAK'S" effectiveness + other GA ws's like it DEV TEAM /wave

[Greatguardian]

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>< well of course I'm referring strategies that involve foes you can't run in and zerg kill ^^ Standard monsters and weak NM's definitely fall under the logic you speak of. /

And he's not referring solely to foes that "Can be zerged". In all honesty, we can no longer call it zerging when my Mnk floors an NM in 60 seconds as the sole DD without any marches or outside buffs aside from Haste. That is not the same as the old definition of "Zerging" wherein you'd have Bard rotations fully buffing 2hr'ing Melee. At this point people are just using it as a pseudo-derogatory term implying people who kill quickly don't know how to play well.

Sure, you can kill things more slowly. But what is the benefit in doing so? It is not more strategic. The best defense is a good offense and if you have the option of killing something faster it means you are giving it less time to hit you, TP on you, potentially kill you, etc. You can kill something with a Monk in 5 minutes, or with a Paladin in 10 minutes, but the Paladin is still taking more damage and using up more of the support's MP because they have to survive 10 minutes worth of attacks rather than 5 minutes worth of attacks.

FFXI's Community came out of the dark ages when people finally realized this en masse. It has never, ever been about "balancing defense". That was simply something people tried back in the day which artificially added a lot of "difficulty", aka time consumption, to NMs which we have since found to be easy. It may not fit into people's idealized concepts of battle strategy and gameplay, but it is how FFXI has worked, does work, and will likely continue to work. If this sort of gameplay does not appeal to someone, they are honestly better off trying out different games and finding one that does more closely fit their ideals than trying to juxtapose their ideal onto the FFXI Dev Team's ideal. I'm all for suggestions, but a lot of times things boil down to people requesting a new game where the things they like matter.

[kingfury]

Name some NMs where Full Break would have a practical use on, then.

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Well none based on FB as it is now ^^ but I just posted this example in regards to the version I'm suggesting on the OP:

"Strategically speaking, in a possible theoretical example:
Popping Full Break at 100 TP with the "Bolstering effects" in my suggestion to +Damage and +Accuracy then quickly building 200+ TP before using Bergresser > Warcry > Blood Rage > Sekkekoni > 2hr > RR x2 could possibly give some nice visible spikes to damage that could yield consistent damage based on how many times you hit the monster during your TP'ing segment. Just a thought though."


Building up +Damage and +Accuracy as you TP would be a nice little thing to add to the Killing of any NM ^^

[Afrohatch]

So basically you want to give FB an aftermath effect D:

And if it does get bolstered, again, what NMs would warrant needing to waste a WS on?

[kingfury]

@ Greatguardian:

Yep, there's no denying that we have the ability to murder NMs in minutes now a days, but I would equate "zerging" to defining SUPER minimal battle strategy that encompasses auto attacking and ws'ing a monster to death while you have someone keep you alive.

Firstly, my points are based on solo/duo or small party scenarios since I agree that an alliance of 18 people should be able to murder most everything using the rapid kill technique... but then there's still NMs like Pandemonium Warden and Absolute Virtue that still doesn't allow for such a strategy, but I digress.

I assume you've fought Glavoid and Mictlantecuhtli and Tefenet. These NMs are some examples of monsters that aren't designed for you to just run in and zerg kill it in 2 mins. That's not to say, of course, with enough fire power you can't kill them in minutes (ex. multiple DD's and multiple casters Nuking at once or poppin a brew). Mictlantecuhtli and Tefenet are lesser NMs, but their designs is what I'm talking about. Glavoid punishes the zerg strategy for those that want to just run in and do as much damage as quickly as possible (non Brew of course). There's some strategy involved is all I'm saying. DD's have to turn around at certain points, Nukers have to time their Nukes just right, etc.

There's more NMs that just aren't designed for 2min kills is my point.

[kingfury]

So basically you want to give FB an aftermath effect D:
And if it does get bolstered, again, what NMs would warrant needing to waste a WS on?

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Well it would be a buff to Damage and Accuracy to all DD's in your party, yourself included ^^ It would increase damage output, so it's like saying why "would you use Blood Rage?"

[Greatguardian]

@ Greatguardian:

Yep, there's no denying that we have the ability to murder NMs in minutes now a days, but I would equate "zerging" to defining SUPER minimal battle strategy that encompasses auto attacking and ws'ing a monster to death while you have someone keep you alive.

Firstly, my points are based on solo/duo or small party scenarios since I agree that an alliance of 18 people should be able to murder most everything using the rapid kill technique... but then there's still NMs like Pandemonium Warden and Absolute Virtue that still doesn't allow for such a strategy, but I digress.

I assume you've fought Glavoid and Mictlantecuhtli and Tefenet. These NMs are some examples of monsters that aren't designed for you to just run in and zerg kill it in 2 mins. That's not to say, of course, with enough fire power you can't kill them in minutes (ex. multiple DD's and multiple casters Nuking at once or poppin a brew). Mictlantecuhtli and Tefenet are lesser NMs, but their designs is what I'm talking about. Glavoid punishes the zerg strategy for those that want to just run in and do as much damage as quickly as possible (non Brew of course). There's some strategy involved is all I'm saying. DD's have to turn around at certain points, Nukers have to time their Nukes just right, etc.

There's more NMs that just aren't designed for 2min kills is my point.

Er, not sure if it's an oversight or not but all of those NMs can be killed in 1-5 minutes with 1-2 DD. AV in particular pretty much has to be zerged, and can be done so with only 4 DD. I have something like half of his drops, I'd know, lol.

I know what you're trying to say, but it pretty much comes down to the same issue Dancers have with steps. In order to justify spending 100 TP (and thus losing out on an Ukko's Fury), the Add Effect of Full Break would have to both add more cumulative damage than an Ukko's, and not result in a net loss of efficiency when you are "Giving up damage now for the promise of damage later". There is a reason many buff/debuffs are simply not worth casting (many steps, Enlight, Endark, etc), and that is that they take away more from killspeed than they give back.

[Byrth]

I assume you've fought Glavoid and Mictlantecuhtli and Tefenet. These NMs are some examples of monsters that aren't designed for you to just run in and zerg kill it in 2 mins. That's not to say, of course, with enough fire power you can't kill them in minutes (ex. multiple DD's and multiple casters Nuking at once or poppin a brew). Mictlantecuhtli and Tefenet are lesser NMs, but their designs is what I'm talking about. Glavoid punishes the zerg strategy for those that want to just run in and do as much damage as quickly as possible (non Brew of course). There's some strategy involved is all I'm saying. DD's have to turn around at certain points, Nukers have to time their Nukes just right, etc.

Those are also NMs that you wouldn't really want to use Full Break on, especially Mict. You spend so much time turning away that self-buffing things like what you're proposing are wasted. You're better off using your WS to do the best damage possible when you can do damage.

Full Break as you're proposing, apart from being either broken or useless, is inconsistent with the idea of a "Break," which is inherently a debuff. This just isn't a good idea. Increase their magical accuracy so that they have their intended effect more often, then accept that all weaponskills aren't useful.

PS. You can hit "Reply" then Control-A and Control-C, then go to the next post you want to Reply to and hit Reply again and paste it in above the next quote created, Control-A/Control-C again and stack it pretty much as many times as you want. That way you can respond to multiple people in the same post with a minimum of effort.

[kingfury]

Can't argue with you there lol you're both right ^^

I suppose I fear the day when all I have to do in this game is auto attack and ws as a means of "battle strategy". Since I know the Devs are getting this stuff, I would leave it up to them to balance this sad truth.

[kingfury]

Those are also NMs that you wouldn't really want to use Full Break on, especially Mict. You spend so much time turning away that self-buffing things like what you're proposing are wasted. You're better off using your WS to do the best damage possible when you can do damage.

Full Break as you're proposing, apart from being either broken or useless, is inconsistent with the idea of a "Break," which is inherently a debuff. This just isn't a good idea. Increase their magical accuracy so that they have their intended effect more often, then accept that all weaponskills aren't useful.

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I wasn't saying that FB would be good to use on these targets Byrth, I was just trying to drive home the point that some monsters in this game don't warrant the "Fast Kill" mentality. That wouldn't mean that that it wouldn't be great to use while burning through lots of monsters and in times when you wish to Buff up the damage from other DD's in your party. Yes it would sacrifice 100 TP and minus the damage from you're own possible powerful ws, but it would be replaced by the possible doubled or so damage from the ws's of every other DD in the party. It's just looking at in a different way is all. Minus your 1 ws, to possibly double the other ws's in the group.

The suggested Bolstered effect FB that I'm proposing would still inflict the same enfeebles as it does now, it would just add the Bolstered stat effect to the equation.

[kingfury]

@ Greatguardian:

Pandemonium Warden can be killed in 1-5 mins now with duo-small party numbers?! o.o