Skillchains

[Laciante]

I know they've been deemed too inefficient to use for quite some time, and I understand the math behind it.
However, I long for the days of old, where you get into party and after the pleasantries you set up a skillchain and burst pattern. It's one of the things that got me hooked, that cooperative party dynamic which really set FFXI apart when I was beginning.

Unfortunately, unless SC are significantly better than TPburning, we of course will never see such dynamics again.
I haven't seen any other topics discussing possible fixes, so let's start here?

As a start, marginal TP (over the 100/200 mark) should improve the WS either as the difference in TPmod between 100~200~300, or as bonus effect tacked on. This way TP gained waiting on your friend is not "wasted".
Second, WS dmg should perhaps start at double combined WS dmg and go from there, improving w/ higher SC tiers and WS count.
As for MB, I'm not much of a mage, so I'm not sure as to that particular.

[Tamarsamar]

Er, dude? Your "start" is already in the game: TP over a 100% threshold proportionately improves the WS by a percentage of the difference made by the next 100%. As a very basic example, take the Weapon Skill Seraph Strike. "Deals Light elemental damage to the enemy. Damage varies with TP." At precisely 100% TP, the Weapon Skill gives a x1.00 multiplier to your damage; at the 200% threshold it's x2.00, and at 300% it's x3.00. If you used Seraph Strike with 117% TP, however, the damage multiplier will scale up 17% of the additional damage provided at the 200% threshold, resulting in a damage multiplier of x1.17.

In a slightly more complicated example, take the Weapon Skill Seraph Blade (seraphs make excellent teachers on TP modifiers, apparently). It has the same description as Seraph Strike (Deals Light elemental damage to enemy. Damage varies with TP.), but it has one difference: at its 200% TP threshold, its damage multiplier is x2.50. This means that is you used Seraph Blade with 136% TP, your damage multiplier, as scaled proportionately to the 200% threshold, will be x1.54. However, since the 300% TP threshold is still a x3.00 multiplier, using Seraph Blade with 244% TP will result only in a multiplier of x2.72. The important implication here is that, point for point, Seraph Blade is at peak damage efficiency at 200% TP, whereas Seraph Strike is equally efficient whenever used.

Unfortunately, those two Weapon Skills are in the minority by a huge margin, as most Weapon Skills are most efficient for damage when done at 100% TP. This will apply to all Weapon Skills without "Damage varies with TP." with almost certainty, but even some Weapon Skills with "Damage varies with TP" are still most efficient when used at 100% TP, a particularly infamous example being the old level 71 Quested Weapon Skills, which were infamous for doing plenty of damage, if you bothered to wait to 300% TP to unleash them . . . but unfortunately, Savage Blade (as a typical example) was nonetheless most efficient at 100% TP anyway. "Delivers a twofold attack. Damage varies with TP." Its damage multipliers at the 100%, 200%, and 300% TP thresholds respectively are x1.00, x1.50, and x3.50 . . . but what you have to remember is that this multiplier only applies to the first hit of a Weapon Skill, all subsequent hits always being given a x1.00 damage multiplier no matter how much TP you have. So, assuming an ideal situation of all hits landing (and you do want all hits to land), you're looking at an effective x2.00, x2.50, and x4.50 damage multipliers for each threshold.

As a more cut-and-dry example, Steel Cyclone's damage multipliers were x1.50, x1.75, and x3.00 for each threshold, again, giving large returns at 300% TP, but not large enough to out-do the nonetheless underwhelming 100% version of the weapon skill three times. (One of the few of those Weapon Skills that were actually considered worthwhile was Evisceration, which instead of giving a damage multiplier at all, was a five-hit attack with a chance for a critical hit on each swing, which you don't normally get on all weapon skills.)

For your "second" point, all you're suggesting is to give a straight buff to an already-existing system. As it stands right now, yes, Skillchains do deal progressively more and more damage during each subsequent "link" in the chain; the problem (unless you're dealing with a handful of Samurai) is bothering to coordinate that many compatible Weapon Skills, which may not be the optimal Skill to perform for damage, and it usually requires waiting beyond that 100% TP threshold that most Weapon Skills are most efficient at. To be blunt, it's too much effort for too little reward, or, in the worst-case scenario, less damage than you would have accomplished just by spamming solo Weapon Skills (when the Skillchain's free additional damage fails to make up for whatever damage that may have been sacrificed in the meantime). (And even with a handful of Samurai, you're walking on eggshells; one false move and you can screw yourself out of a lot of potential damage.)

The way Skillchains work right now is that they deal a certain percentage of the damage of the Weapon Skill that caused them, this percentage increasing depending on what number link in the chain it is, and capping after the 6th link in the chain. If the Skillchain was Tier I, it will add 50% of the 2nd Weapon Skill's damage after the 2nd Weapon Skill, and if a subsequent Weapon Skill also results in a Tier I link, the Skillchain will deal an additional 10% of its respective Weapon Skill's damage, capping at 90% of the damage of a 6th+ Skillchain link resulting in a Tier I.

For Tier II Skillchains, the damage added after the 2nd Weapon Skill is 60% of its damage. If the 3rd link of a Skillchain results in a Tier II Skillchain, that Skillchain will deal 75% of the third Weapon Skill's damage. If a subsequent link results in a Tier II Skillchain, it will deal an additional 25% of its respective Weapon Skill's damage, capping at 150% of the damage of a 6th+ Skillchain link resulting in a Tier II.

If the 2nd Weapon Skill results in a Tier III Skillchain right off the bat, that Skillchain will deal 100% of the 2nd Weapon Skill's damage. If the 3rd link results in a Tier III, that Skillchain will deal 150% of the 3rd Weapon Skill's damage. If a subsequent link results in a Tier III, that Skillchain will deal an additional 25% of its respective Weapon Skill's damage for each subsequent link of the chain, capping at 225% of the damage of the 6th+ Skillchain link resulting in a Tier III.

Concerning your point on Magic Bursts, yes, even those already get more powerful the longer the Skillchain is. The bonus on Magic damage for bursting on a 2nd-link Skillchain is 30%, increasing by an additional 5% for each step later in the Skillchain that is Bursted on (presumably also capping after the 6th+ link, but this is uncertain).

Finally, concerning your complaints about the death of SC+MB and the rise of TP burns . . . hello, 2007! Meanwhile, back here in 2011, with the advent of Abyssea, we basically have an everything-burn that can give very large amounts of exp in relatively short amounts of time, to the point where exp becomes irrelevant all together for many players! If anything, the most popular "specific" burn nowadays seems to be the Fell Cleave burn, and even that is because it can be tooled for specific purposes.

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tl;dr: What you're suggesting is already in the game.

[Laciante]

I didn't know they had changed (?) it that between the 100TP marks efficiency scaled, as far as I knew it didn't happen.
I understand how SC works, and that it is damage inefficient as it stands (because compatible WS are not often the best WS). That's why I suggested calculation of SC dmg from both WS (so opening with a high dmg skill is not a sin) and starting tiers from 100% (so that even doing Scission doubles dmg)
I know how old the death of SCMB is, and I endure mindless TPburning like the rest of us... I'm not sure how that's relevant though...

What I was suggesting was only the bare-minimum of what I expect from any SC improvements, if they exist already then that's great, lets continue.
I -did- say let's start here, and discuss... I'm not sure what can be done to bring back a signature of the game's battle mechanic, but I figured I'd at least start a thread.

[Camate]

We’ve got some tidbits regarding some future updates to skillchains and magic bursts I’m sure you’ll find interesting.

As a future direction for skillchains, instead of adjusting them to be a simple source of damage, we’re planning to implement adjustments that will allow for more strategic usage options.

I think it goes without saying that the current battle style has changed drastically since the time when skillchains were first introduced. As a result of this, skillchains have become nigh unsuitable as a means for dealing massive damage and often occur now as an unintended accident. With that in mind we made sure to avoid “upgrading” skillchains so much that they became required to earn exp.

For this reason, we’re looking into reducing an enemy’s elemental resistance corresponding to the element of the skillchain used for the duration of the magic burst window. This change will make skillchains more versatile and usable during battles with notorious monsters.

Below is a basic overview:

Example 1: When executing a transfixion skillchain
Transfixion is a light-elemental based, so the monster’s resistance to spells related to light is lowered.

Example 2: When executing a light skillchain
Light is fire/wind/thunder/light-elemental based, so the monster’s resistance to spells related to fire, wind, thunder, and light are lowered.

[Septimus]

We’ve got some tidbits regarding some future updates to skillchains and magic bursts I’m sure you’ll find interesting.

As a future direction for skillchains, instead of adjusting them to be a simple source of damage, we’re planning to implement adjustments that will allow for more strategic usage options.

I think it goes without saying that the current battle style has changed drastically since the time when skillchains were first introduced. As a result of this, skillchains have become nigh unsuitable as a means for dealing massive damage and often occur now as an unintended accident. With that in mind we made sure to avoid “upgrading” skillchains so much that they became required to earn exp.

For this reason, we’re looking into reducing an enemy’s elemental resistance corresponding to the element of the skillchain used for the duration of the magic burst window. This change will make skillchains more versatile and usable during battles with notorious monsters.

Below is a basic overview:

Example 1: When executing a transfixion skillchain
Transfixion is a light-elemental based, so the monster’s resistance to spells related to light is lowered.

Example 2: When executing a light skillchain
Light is fire/wind/thunder/light-elemental based, so the monster’s resistance to spells related to fire, wind, thunder, and light are lowered.

Skillchains already increase the magic accuracy for spells of the elements of the skillchain, the elemental resistance reduction will have to be absolutely huge before anyone even thought to pay any attention to them. Instead of just having the resistance reduction (alliterations are amusing) last during the skillchain window, maybe have the effect last for a minute or so after the skillchain so that there is more of a purpose to the bonus. Maybe throw in some other bonuses like severely limiting a mob's TP gain after a skillchain; 20% for level 1, 35% for level 2, and 50% for level 3.

Skillchains are supposed to be one of the hallmarks of this game, making them just a smidge on the overpowered side would definitely not be a terrible thing.

[kingfury]

For this reason, we’re looking into reducing an enemy’s elemental resistance corresponding to the element of the skillchain used for the duration of the magic burst window. This change will make skillchains more versatile and usable during battles with notorious monsters.

Below is a basic overview:

Example 1: When executing a transfixion skillchain
Transfixion is a light-elemental based, so the monster’s resistance to spells related to light is lowered.

Example 2: When executing a light skillchain
Light is fire/wind/thunder/light-elemental based, so the monster’s resistance to spells related to fire, wind, thunder, and light are lowered.

-------------------------
Sounds cool, and I'm sure Nuker's all around will most likely be singing praise once they see the burst numbers lol.

I wanted to put in a bit more feedback in regards to another aspect of this new adjustment though if I may. There are so many cool elemental weapon skills to be used (especially on WAR), yet their damage potential leaves much to be desired even inside Abyssea (unless you're only building +Elemental ws dmg Atmas which would be a huge trade off against other damage boosting Atmas). As soon as I read "lowers elemental resistance" I got all excited lol, but my shoulders soon drooped in disappointment as it seems only the mage-folk will see the spoils from this adjustment. My suggestion would be along the lines of this:

So to bring this adjustment to even greater use amongst as many party members as possible, how about allowing a short window of opportunity after a skillchain has been created for a Drastic damage increase when using the corresponding elemental weapon skill (like from the current 200+ dmg to upwards 1500+ dmg). This would happen independently of the skillchain > magic burst process, but would allow even greater cooperation and planning among the other non-caster party members to stack even greater damage numbers. Not to mention it would greatly utilize the tremendous proficiency most every DD has gained in the art of using elemental weapon skills in our months of Abyssea adventures lol.

The window of damage boosting opportunity would be just as slim as the magic burst window, further prompting party attention and focus on creating time sensitive damage throughout the life of the party like the days of old. Perhaps even allowing multiple elemental weapons skills to be chained together so long as they are timed, and executed close enough together. All while wonderful magic burst are exploding on top of the targets head! ^^

I think the direction would open party play once again like never before Thanks for taking feedback on this /salute

[Rambus]

We’ve got some tidbits regarding some future updates to skillchains and magic bursts I’m sure you’ll find interesting.

As a future direction for skillchains, instead of adjusting them to be a simple source of damage, we’re planning to implement adjustments that will allow for more strategic usage options.

I think it goes without saying that the current battle style has changed drastically since the time when skillchains were first introduced. As a result of this, skillchains have become nigh unsuitable as a means for dealing massive damage and often occur now as an unintended accident. With that in mind we made sure to avoid “upgrading” skillchains so much that they became required to earn exp.

For this reason, we’re looking into reducing an enemy’s elemental resistance corresponding to the element of the skillchain used for the duration of the magic burst window. This change will make skillchains more versatile and usable during battles with notorious monsters.

Below is a basic overview:

Example 1: When executing a transfixion skillchain
Transfixion is a light-elemental based, so the monster’s resistance to spells related to light is lowered.

Example 2: When executing a light skillchain
Light is fire/wind/thunder/light-elemental based, so the monster’s resistance to spells related to fire, wind, thunder, and light are lowered.

uh can you be more clear? in general BLMs accepted that MBs tend to be more " acurate" then non mb. In other words elemental resist is already lowered for mbs correct? are you talking about making the window longer? I am confused.

when we look at pre abyssea blms where not used for damage because mp damage was inefficient, so holding tp for SC made it more inefficient for damage. in abyssea you are ether oneshoting mobs on ws, or making blm only purpose for yellow as you let one dd do damage and tank.

my point is saying this manaic already exists. Also this change does not change the want of MBs or SCs. I SC with other people if the moment permits, but no one really cares. Tell the DEV not to waist their time with this please, other stuff needs more fixing then a maniac that will go unused for the most part.

[Randwolf]

when we look at pre abyssea blms where not used for damage because mp damage was inefficient, so holding tp for SC made it more inefficient for damage.

Are you talking pre-Abyssea back to the start of the game. MB's went away when DD's became over-powered. But, there used to be a time when MB'ing mobs was a faster way to get experience. Parties actually used to be created around what skill-chains the DD's could do so the BLM could MB. It used to control pt invites and handicapped some jobs. With the advent of the very powerful DD, BLM's then found themselves in that same boat.

[Rambus]

Are you talking pre-Abyssea back to the start of the game. MB's went away when DD's became over-powered. But, there used to be a time when MB'ing mobs was a faster way to get experience. Parties actually used to be created around what skill-chains the DD's could do so the BLM could MB. It used to control pt invites and handicapped some jobs. With the advent of the very powerful DD, BLM's then found themselves in that same boat.

sorry past ATU- pre abyssea, point is even if contant is taking outside abyssea ATU mindset still sets it

point is I want to see this game fixed like menus or job balances before crap like this is looked into. I really do not care for it , SE tried a frew times to try get SCs back in play and failed. ( made sc damage less resisted)

leave it alone for now, other stuff needs more fixing

[Randwolf]

leave it alone for now, other stuff needs more fixing

Priority of what needs fixing probably depends on your primary job. I'm sure anyone who primarily plays BLM would see something like this as medium to high priority. I saw a lot of QQ'ing by BLM's when DD"s kept getting buff after buff.