Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 45

Thread: Skillchains

  1. #1
    Player Laciante's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    93
    Character
    Laciante
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 93

    Skillchains

    I know they've been deemed too inefficient to use for quite some time, and I understand the math behind it.
    However, I long for the days of old, where you get into party and after the pleasantries you set up a skillchain and burst pattern. It's one of the things that got me hooked, that cooperative party dynamic which really set FFXI apart when I was beginning.

    Unfortunately, unless SC are significantly better than TPburning, we of course will never see such dynamics again.
    I haven't seen any other topics discussing possible fixes, so let's start here?

    As a start, marginal TP (over the 100/200 mark) should improve the WS either as the difference in TPmod between 100~200~300, or as bonus effect tacked on. This way TP gained waiting on your friend is not "wasted".
    Second, WS dmg should perhaps start at double combined WS dmg and go from there, improving w/ higher SC tiers and WS count.
    As for MB, I'm not much of a mage, so I'm not sure as to that particular.
    (0)

  2. #2
    Player Tamarsamar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    305
    Character
    Tamarsamar
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 95
    Er, dude? Your "start" is already in the game: TP over a 100% threshold proportionately improves the WS by a percentage of the difference made by the next 100%. As a very basic example, take the Weapon Skill Seraph Strike. "Deals Light elemental damage to the enemy. Damage varies with TP." At precisely 100% TP, the Weapon Skill gives a x1.00 multiplier to your damage; at the 200% threshold it's x2.00, and at 300% it's x3.00. If you used Seraph Strike with 117% TP, however, the damage multiplier will scale up 17% of the additional damage provided at the 200% threshold, resulting in a damage multiplier of x1.17.

    In a slightly more complicated example, take the Weapon Skill Seraph Blade (seraphs make excellent teachers on TP modifiers, apparently). It has the same description as Seraph Strike (Deals Light elemental damage to enemy. Damage varies with TP.), but it has one difference: at its 200% TP threshold, its damage multiplier is x2.50. This means that is you used Seraph Blade with 136% TP, your damage multiplier, as scaled proportionately to the 200% threshold, will be x1.54. However, since the 300% TP threshold is still a x3.00 multiplier, using Seraph Blade with 244% TP will result only in a multiplier of x2.72. The important implication here is that, point for point, Seraph Blade is at peak damage efficiency at 200% TP, whereas Seraph Strike is equally efficient whenever used.

    Unfortunately, those two Weapon Skills are in the minority by a huge margin, as most Weapon Skills are most efficient for damage when done at 100% TP. This will apply to all Weapon Skills without "Damage varies with TP." with almost certainty, but even some Weapon Skills with "Damage varies with TP" are still most efficient when used at 100% TP, a particularly infamous example being the old level 71 Quested Weapon Skills, which were infamous for doing plenty of damage, if you bothered to wait to 300% TP to unleash them . . . but unfortunately, Savage Blade (as a typical example) was nonetheless most efficient at 100% TP anyway. "Delivers a twofold attack. Damage varies with TP." Its damage multipliers at the 100%, 200%, and 300% TP thresholds respectively are x1.00, x1.50, and x3.50 . . . but what you have to remember is that this multiplier only applies to the first hit of a Weapon Skill, all subsequent hits always being given a x1.00 damage multiplier no matter how much TP you have. So, assuming an ideal situation of all hits landing (and you do want all hits to land), you're looking at an effective x2.00, x2.50, and x4.50 damage multipliers for each threshold.

    As a more cut-and-dry example, Steel Cyclone's damage multipliers were x1.50, x1.75, and x3.00 for each threshold, again, giving large returns at 300% TP, but not large enough to out-do the nonetheless underwhelming 100% version of the weapon skill three times. (One of the few of those Weapon Skills that were actually considered worthwhile was Evisceration, which instead of giving a damage multiplier at all, was a five-hit attack with a chance for a critical hit on each swing, which you don't normally get on all weapon skills.)

    For your "second" point, all you're suggesting is to give a straight buff to an already-existing system. As it stands right now, yes, Skillchains do deal progressively more and more damage during each subsequent "link" in the chain; the problem (unless you're dealing with a handful of Samurai) is bothering to coordinate that many compatible Weapon Skills, which may not be the optimal Skill to perform for damage, and it usually requires waiting beyond that 100% TP threshold that most Weapon Skills are most efficient at. To be blunt, it's too much effort for too little reward, or, in the worst-case scenario, less damage than you would have accomplished just by spamming solo Weapon Skills (when the Skillchain's free additional damage fails to make up for whatever damage that may have been sacrificed in the meantime). (And even with a handful of Samurai, you're walking on eggshells; one false move and you can screw yourself out of a lot of potential damage.)

    The way Skillchains work right now is that they deal a certain percentage of the damage of the Weapon Skill that caused them, this percentage increasing depending on what number link in the chain it is, and capping after the 6th link in the chain. If the Skillchain was Tier I, it will add 50% of the 2nd Weapon Skill's damage after the 2nd Weapon Skill, and if a subsequent Weapon Skill also results in a Tier I link, the Skillchain will deal an additional 10% of its respective Weapon Skill's damage, capping at 90% of the damage of a 6th+ Skillchain link resulting in a Tier I.

    For Tier II Skillchains, the damage added after the 2nd Weapon Skill is 60% of its damage. If the 3rd link of a Skillchain results in a Tier II Skillchain, that Skillchain will deal 75% of the third Weapon Skill's damage. If a subsequent link results in a Tier II Skillchain, it will deal an additional 25% of its respective Weapon Skill's damage, capping at 150% of the damage of a 6th+ Skillchain link resulting in a Tier II.

    If the 2nd Weapon Skill results in a Tier III Skillchain right off the bat, that Skillchain will deal 100% of the 2nd Weapon Skill's damage. If the 3rd link results in a Tier III, that Skillchain will deal 150% of the 3rd Weapon Skill's damage. If a subsequent link results in a Tier III, that Skillchain will deal an additional 25% of its respective Weapon Skill's damage for each subsequent link of the chain, capping at 225% of the damage of the 6th+ Skillchain link resulting in a Tier III.

    Concerning your point on Magic Bursts, yes, even those already get more powerful the longer the Skillchain is. The bonus on Magic damage for bursting on a 2nd-link Skillchain is 30%, increasing by an additional 5% for each step later in the Skillchain that is Bursted on (presumably also capping after the 6th+ link, but this is uncertain).

    Finally, concerning your complaints about the death of SC+MB and the rise of TP burns . . . hello, 2007! Meanwhile, back here in 2011, with the advent of Abyssea, we basically have an everything-burn that can give very large amounts of exp in relatively short amounts of time, to the point where exp becomes irrelevant all together for many players! If anything, the most popular "specific" burn nowadays seems to be the Fell Cleave burn, and even that is because it can be tooled for specific purposes.

    ----

    tl;dr: What you're suggesting is already in the game.
    (0)

  3. #3
    Player Laciante's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    93
    Character
    Laciante
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 93
    I didn't know they had changed (?) it that between the 100TP marks efficiency scaled, as far as I knew it didn't happen.
    I understand how SC works, and that it is damage inefficient as it stands (because compatible WS are not often the best WS). That's why I suggested calculation of SC dmg from both WS (so opening with a high dmg skill is not a sin) and starting tiers from 100% (so that even doing Scission doubles dmg)
    I know how old the death of SCMB is, and I endure mindless TPburning like the rest of us... I'm not sure how that's relevant though...

    What I was suggesting was only the bare-minimum of what I expect from any SC improvements, if they exist already then that's great, lets continue.
    I -did- say let's start here, and discuss... I'm not sure what can be done to bring back a signature of the game's battle mechanic, but I figured I'd at least start a thread.
    (0)

  4. #4
    Community Rep Camate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,712
    We’ve got some tidbits regarding some future updates to skillchains and magic bursts I’m sure you’ll find interesting.

    As a future direction for skillchains, instead of adjusting them to be a simple source of damage, we’re planning to implement adjustments that will allow for more strategic usage options.

    I think it goes without saying that the current battle style has changed drastically since the time when skillchains were first introduced. As a result of this, skillchains have become nigh unsuitable as a means for dealing massive damage and often occur now as an unintended accident. With that in mind we made sure to avoid “upgrading” skillchains so much that they became required to earn exp.

    For this reason, we’re looking into reducing an enemy’s elemental resistance corresponding to the element of the skillchain used for the duration of the magic burst window. This change will make skillchains more versatile and usable during battles with notorious monsters.

    Below is a basic overview:
    Example 1: When executing a transfixion skillchain
    Transfixion is a light-elemental based, so the monster’s resistance to spells related to light is lowered.

    Example 2: When executing a light skillchain
    Light is fire/wind/thunder/light-elemental based, so the monster’s resistance to spells related to fire, wind, thunder, and light are lowered.
    (23)
    Devin "Camate" Casadey - Community Team

  5. #5
    Player Karbuncle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    4,314
    Awesome idea ;O!

    Might i make a Suggestion? Instead of lowering Resistance ( I assume this just means Magic Evasion ) why not also lower Its Magic Defense to that? so Subsequent Magic attacks of said element Hit harder, as well as more accurate.

    Maybe lower its Magic EVA/DEF a significant amount, ~10% wouldn't be enough, maybe 20%? So say instead of a nuke doing 1k, it would do 1.2k after the Skillchain?

    So that way even, Magic Bursts would also land much harder!

    Would also be nice if you could find a way for Skillchains to Temporarily (15sec?, During MB Phase only?) remove Immunites/Abosrbtions. I.E doing a Wind Skillchain on Amhuluk would actually make it to where Wind-Based Debuffs have a chance to land. (Cause right now Earth Threnody (?) can't land on Amhuluk for yellow "!!" Since he's Immune to wind.)

    Example: Player Does Detonation Skillchain (Wind) on Amhuluk, During "Magic Burst" Window, Immunities/Absorbtions/Resistance are Null. Meaning Amhuluk who's usually Immune to Wind based Debuffs like Earth Threnody(?) Can now be afflicted with Earth Threnody, allowing for Grellow Weakness to be triggered if it is so that spell.

    Example2: Mob is Resistant to Ice. Player X does Dark Skillchain, BLM's can nuke Ice for Stronger-Unresisted Nukes on said NM since Resistance/Immunities/Etc are Annulled During Magic-Burst "Window"?

    This would add a huge advantage to Skillchains.

    I HOEP YEW LIEK
    (8)
    Last edited by Karbuncle; 04-20-2011 at 05:12 AM.

  6. #6
    Player Tanag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    23
    Character
    Tanag
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    I'm not sure this is the best fix. Skillchains shouldn't be entirely about magic bursts. Even in the past if a party didn't have a BLM we would still SC, because the added damage was beneficial. It seems a bit silly to make SCs rely on MB to become useful again.
    Not every group has BLMs. Though they are admittedly more common since they are needed for grellow, they shouldn't be required to make a battle mechanic useful.

    Why not boost SC damage as well? Or maybe give them additional status effects like FFXIV does?
    (4)
    Tanag - Alexander

  7. #7
    Player scaevola's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    726
    Character
    Scaevola
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    Lowering elemental resistance does not seem to be the best way to go about this, honestly. I'm unsure of the intent over the straight damage buff it is currently; is this intended to help make debuffs stickier? It seems a little pointless to have a mechanic to reduce resistance to debuffs if taking advantage of it means you have to wait for that mechanic to begin with.

    This would also make Darkness chains dramatically better than Light (blind/para/slow), though I'm not sure that matters if nobody's doing them anyway.
    (2)
    Last edited by scaevola; 04-20-2011 at 05:34 AM.

  8. #8
    Player xbobx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    575
    Character
    Shuffles
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    PUP Lv 99
    I think skillchains should apply a high version of an enfeeble. So if you do a light skillchain, it applies a dia 4 type affect. Fire a burn affect. Wind silence, Ice paralyze etc etc.
    (0)

  9. #9
    Player
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    139
    nah it would be to powerful if you just allowed them to enfeeble a mob by making a skillchain. If you did that then SAM's would have the potential to land any enfeeble on a mob through their ability to create a lv 3 SC.
    What could work though in terms of enfeebles is when a SC is created, an enfeeble that may sometimes be resistant to the mob will land regardless of it's elemental alignment. It would defiantly help with cases in abyssea where you can't land certain magic weaknesses because the mosnter can resist the enfeeble and create another strategic use for SC in general.
    (2)

  10. #10
    Player
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    35
    I do hope they bring back the old days of setting up Skillchains i love this game for that alone the max team work that you got to have to pull it off just right!
    (0)

Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread