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  1. #1
    Player rotflcopter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    26
    Character
    Dekay
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99

    Bard Adjustments

    Since the development team wanted feedback on upcoming job adjustments this year, can we talk about a big quality of life fix for Bard?

    Please add an NPC somewhere in the world that we could "show" or "trade" an instrument that gives us additional songs in exchange for a key item that would allow your character to use that additional number of songs permanently.

    Examples - Trading a Terpander to the NPC would grant a permanent key item that allows you to cast 3 song buffs all the time. The item would not be consumed.

    Trading a Daurdabla to the NPC would grant a permanent key item that allows you to cast 4 song buffs all the time. The item would not be consumed.

    Having to not cast dummy songs on Bard would be a huge improvement and one that is long overdue.

    I would be interested in input from career Bards to other ways the job could be further improved because it still lags behind Geomancer and Corsair in a lot of respects.
    (2)

  2. #2
    Player VoiceMemo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    533
    Character
    Voicememo
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    As a veteran bard who has played bard over 12 years getting a KI to do the 3rd and 4th songs would be a waste of an opportunity to improve bard. If such a KI was implemented, it would make Terpander and Daurdabla basically throw away weps after you got the KI. Having to do dummy songs is part of the skill that is required to play bard.

    I've made multiple threads over the years suggesting what can be done to improve bard.

    There are better things to improve on such as gaining our 100% slow song, massacre elegy.
    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...Massacre-Elegy

    Fixing the ballad overwrite issue
    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...llad-overwrite

    Adjustment of the song effects on enemy pets or give players songs effects to player pets
    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...2018-ambuscade
    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...cc-Regen/page2
    (1)

  3. #3
    Player DarkValefor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    61
    Character
    Kukiki
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    I don't thing having to cast 6 songs once then being able to do 4 songs is too much of an issue (well, some people actually cast 4 dummies and then 4 ghorn songs, but you can just do 2 dummies if you understand the job properly)

    However even if they did the KI thing, Daurdabla would still be incredibily valuable for sleeps, the extra song duration is really helpful when you meet the magic accuracy requirements, considering Gjallarhorn has a lower range as its not a string instrument.

    Also if you can reach 10 minutes songs, which is the recast timer for Marcato without using the inyanga leg armor, that totally fixes the ballad issue and you can still keep full time Marcato Honor March so that's not too much of an issue.

    Casting songs on pets would be cool but kind of OP for smn, they'd have to do extra adjustments for balance if they did that.
    (1)

  4. #4
    Player VoiceMemo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    533
    Character
    Voicememo
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkValefor View Post
    I don't thing having to cast 6 songs once then being able to do 4 songs is too much of an issue (well, some people actually cast 4 dummies and then 4 ghorn songs, but you can just do 2 dummies if you understand the job properly)

    However even if they did the KI thing, Daurdabla would still be incredibily valuable for sleeps, the extra song duration is really helpful when you meet the magic accuracy requirements, considering Gjallarhorn has a lower range as its not a string instrument.

    Also if you can reach 10 minutes songs, which is the recast timer for Marcato without using the inyanga leg armor, that totally fixes the ballad issue and you can still keep full time Marcato Honor March so that's not too much of an issue.

    Casting songs on pets would be cool but kind of OP for smn, they'd have to do extra adjustments for balance if they did that.
    Did you read my ballad post? I think I've laid out the problem with the ballad overwrite issue all there.
    (1)

  5. #5
    Player DarkValefor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    61
    Character
    Kukiki
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    Like you say in your post this issue happens because the duration of your ballads is lower than the other songs.

    What I'm saying is I have this issue fixed by doing the following:

    1. Do not use Inyanga leg armor because it increases the song duration for minuets and madrigals but you can't use it for ballads as you'd be missing the ballad +1 from empyrean armor. I just use empyrean for all of my songs, as you can still reach 10 minutes duration with ni-tro. It also adds extra dex for madrigals and str for minuets and i have no problem with losing a bit of duration as long as songs still last 10+ min

    2. And this is an issue that in my opinion will get fixed when they come out with empyrean +3 armor, do not use song +9 for now if you want to keep 3 ballads on the mages. I know this is not a solution right now but I'm pretty sure the empyrean updates will fix this.
    (0)

  6. #6
    Player Gwydion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    350
    Character
    Sleepyt
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    I'm sorry, but I disagree with you wholeheartedly Voicememo. I think that:

    1.) Clarion Call should automatically give a 5th song when the ability is used (without the need to equip Daurdabla)
    2.) 3rd and 4th songs should be innate abilities of the Bard once the weapons are acquired WITHOUT the need to cast dummy songs.

    You can call it skill as much as you want, but if SE's goal in 2019 is to make "jobs more fun" ....I can't think of a better candidate for bard, that to drop the need for pointless dummy songs, swapping into dummy song sets, hoping that ovewrites take place based on remaining duration or current magic skill, etc.
    (1)

  7. #7
    Player Nyarlko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    1,523
    Character
    Nyarlko
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Should be able to take Daurdaubla to Kupofried and learn 3rd song permanently like Empyrean WS IMO. >.> Probably too challenging code-wise for them to tackle at this point tho.
    (1)
    “That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.”

  8. #8
    Player VoiceMemo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    533
    Character
    Voicememo
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    I guess agree to disagree

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    I'm sorry, but I disagree with you wholeheartedly Voicememo. I think that:

    1.) Clarion Call should automatically give a 5th song when the ability is used (without the need to equip Daurdabla)
    The fact that you don't seem to understand how clarion call works, indicates you may not be a career bard. Clarion call grans the ability to cast 1 more song, you dont need to equip daurbdala or terpander. I you use CC you can sing 3 songs directly with any instrument. Basically you're a native 3 song bard when CC is active. AFTER those 3 are up, THEN you must use instruments that grant you additional songs to get up dummy songs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    2.) 3rd and 4th songs should be innate abilities of the Bard once the weapons are acquired WITHOUT the need to cast dummy songs.

    You can call it skill as much as you want, but if SE's goal in 2019 is to make "jobs more fun" ....I can't think of a better candidate for bard, that to drop the need for pointless dummy songs, swapping into dummy song sets, hoping that ovewrites take place based on remaining duration or current magic skill, etc.
    Would the change to make 3rd and 4th song ki be handy? Yes, BUT bard would not gain any additional power/utility than it already has. You already can cast 3 4 or 5 songs, all you are doing with KI is changing the mechanics. My suggestions increase bards power/utility.

    Massacre elegy, 100% slow, effectively doubling all timers.

    The difference in duration of ballad compared to other songs, a 27% difference.

    Yes there was a suggestion to NOT use Inyanga Shalwar +2, but not using an item that is BiS for the stat seems against what most players would strive for. That we have to gimp ourselves to makeup for SE's shortcomings. Yes it is still over 10 min, BUT it is shorter than the maximum duration possible.

    There is no hoping when overwriting songs, Song overwrite order follows the order that it will overwrite the song that has the least duration first, which is why there is the ballad overwrite issue. When songs are NT'd, Troubadour specifically, the duration is doubled. Since ballad is a shorter duration, when ballad 3 is cast then ballad 2, ballad 2 overwrites ballad 3.

    The ability of song effects on enemy pets is about consistency. If SE takes it away from enemies, it's still a gain for bard since it debuffs mobs(compared to how they are now). Same as if SE gives the ability for players song effects to players pets, a net gain.

    All 3 suggestions I've laid out get bard more power and utility. All a 3rd, 4th song ki does is change the mechanics of how bard is played, gaining no power or utility, which seems like a wasted opportunity since SE is asking players what they would like.

    From my standpoint, KI for 3rd and 4th song is being asked by non MAX bards(bards that don't have REMAA and both necks). Likely those without mythic and don't understand how much 50% duration boost helps. With the longer duration, gives me time to help cure, na or dd. The bards asking for 3rd and 4th song ki are likely song bards only.
    (1)

  9. #9
    Player Paul1260's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Missouri, USA
    Posts
    13
    Character
    Dexterm
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 99
    If they wanted to give us 3-4 songs with a KI there would've been a WoE path that didn't include heavy metal plates and riftcinders.
    (0)

  10. #10
    Player Nyarlko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    1,523
    Character
    Nyarlko
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Seems to come down to VoiceMemo asking for actual system changes and significant buffs to the job's output, while others are asking for a QOL change that would simplify playing the job. I'm more on the QOL team here.

    Dealing with dummy songs is little more than a timesink during gameplay. It doesn't actually take any more skill at playing the job to sing 2x bad songs with one instrument before overwriting them with 4x good songs from a different instrument, it just takes extra time and extra macros. ^^;; Whether the devs' would implement it as a KI, or as a simple data flag (like how every other Empyrean ws works,) would be up to them, and wouldn't really impact players much. I would personally prefer that there's only one flag/KI, for 4-song Daurdabla. You would still need to max lvl it, which would quash complaints about being "too easy", and it's not like it would be consumed in the process, so you'd still be able to use it for all current use cases... It would just eliminate the very unintuitive dummy song process and would be a legit QOL improvement regardless of how geared you are otherwise.

    The simplest solution for the Ballad overwrite issue, would be to add a Ballad+ piece of gear in a non-conflicting slot (maybe waist?) with other song enhancing gear to allow for parity between (useful/used) songs. Might want to wait to add it til the same time they do Empy+2/+3 reforges to make sure that the values match up. I just don't see the devs doing a major overhaul of the song system to accommodate changes to Ballad only... Seems like something ripe for being bug-infested and game-breaking too, which I personally would shy away from asking for. >_>

    I would love it if songs affected pets, but it seems like something that could have some massive technical hurdles to overcome, plus you know, game balance. It would undeniably break the current game balance if all of a sudden both master+pet started benefiting from songs. (Might even be enough to finally get me meleeing as BST in that case tho. lol) Yes, there'd be issues with SMN avatars getting beefed up even more, but in my mind, I'd be worried more about the effects on PUP and BST. (DRG barely counts as a pet job, but I'm sure they wouldn't complain about a DPS buff.) PUP is already quite capable of doing quite a bit and songs on autos could be enough to make them able to do a bit too much compared to others. BST... I don't want to even imagine what sort of whinefest would get started up this time against BST if it was possible for both master+pet to melee together fully buffed. We got hobbled (literally!) last time there were complaints, and I don't want us to get castrated too because BRD beefed us up too much. <,<;;

    I'm not sure the tech actually exists to enable master+pet songs actually.. I can't think of anything beyond a handful of food items and Mythic AM which is even able to affect both players+pets. And again, there would be definite game balance concerns with a sudden huge increase in pet performance. Heck, I'd be ecstatic if there was even only a way to make songs on me affect my pet INSTEAD of me as BST.. but I don't see it happening since that would likely require actual new spells in the dats to work.

    But, if we're asking for new songs, then I'd prefer M.Acc/MAB songs, maybe even MBD/SCB for something more interesting?
    (1)
    “That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.”

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