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  1. #11
    Player VoiceMemo's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    546
    Character
    Voicememo
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlko View Post

    The simplest solution for the Ballad overwrite issue, would be to add a Ballad+ piece of gear in a non-conflicting slot (maybe waist?) with other song enhancing gear to allow for parity between (useful/used) songs. Might want to wait to add it til the same time they do Empy+2/+3 reforges to make sure that the values match up. I just don't see the devs doing a major overhaul of the song system to accommodate changes to Ballad only... Seems like something ripe for being bug-infested and game-breaking too, which I personally would shy away from asking for. >_>
    In case didn't see my solution I posted I'll quote myself

    Quote Originally Posted by VoiceMemo View Post
    For those who wish to discuss this further and not be condescending like Songen here is my example situation.

    party of 11, composed of

    party 1 Tank, Whm, Geo, brd, DD, DD
    party 2 DD, DD, DD, cor, whm

    Brd Soul voices and CC's NT
    Than pianissmo's ballad 3 on whm, cannot put any more ballads as ballad 2 would overwrite ballad 3

    Brd then swaps to 2nd party, sings madrigal, madrigal, attack, daurdabla song1, daurdabla song 2, honor, victory
    again pianissmo's ballad 3 on whm, and cannot put any more ballads as they would overwrite ballad 3

    NT has worn by now and it is still impossible to overwrite other songs with ballads and because of the amount of songs it is impossible to have whm stand away
    from the dd so that they do not receive the dd songs, as the max time for NT is 1 min 20 seconds with max NT merits you can get 15, maybe 16 songs off when you include swap time, pianissimo ja time and if swap is slow NT will not last long enough to get the 2nd party with full duration songs.

    This is why I think ballads should act like hastes where the higher one cannot be overwritten by a lower one, thereby forcing one of the other songs off. After NT wears soul voice and cc still have a good 1 min 40 seconds left. I would like to apply 3 ballads 2 marches on myself so I would have more mp refresh to assist healing/na'ing alliance.

    It makes no sense to reorder songs in this case to focus on ballads first as this is all about DD songs, dd's would benefit more from songs with longer duration, but to help support it would be good to have ballads on, but the song duration prevents this.

    The only other solutions are to add more ballad + gear on slots that currently don't have all song or song duration on them. Adding more all song gear would just keep the ballad to other song gap the same. The current gap is 27% between acc/march compared to ballad duration.

    Or to increase the base duration of ballads by 27%, 32.4s.

    Ballad +2 on empyrean legs is not enough to bridge the gap between other songs. To match other songs legs would have to be Ballad +3.7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlko View Post
    But, if we're asking for new songs, then I'd prefer M.Acc/MAB songs, maybe even MBD/SCB for something more interesting?
    SE said song palette is full, so they can only add new songs if they remove one. Massacre elegy is in game already so it takes up a song spot. MACC/MAB or MDB/SCB would be nice, but what would be removed if they added those types of songs?
    (0)

  2. #12
    Player Nyarlko's Avatar
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    Nov 2015
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    1,523
    Character
    Nyarlko
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by VoiceMemo View Post
    SE said song palette is full, so they can only add new songs if they remove one. Massacre elegy is in game already so it takes up a song spot. MACC/MAB or MDB/SCB would be nice, but what would be removed if they added those types of songs?
    I agree with your solution making sense, but do you really think the current skeleton crew would be able to actually accomplish adding a song-specific priority system without borking everything else up AND without working on nothing else in the game for 3mon+? ^^;;

    As far as what to remove goes... Well, how often does anyone use all of the status resist songs? <,< Freed up song spots found!

    ... Seriously, when was the last time you actually wanted to have something like Goblin Gavotte or Shining Capriccio active? lol Would these not make worthy sacrifices to make room for spells that actually would improve bard's position as a buffer in comparison to geo?
    (2)
    “That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.”

  3. #13
    Player DarkValefor's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    61
    Character
    Kukiki
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by VoiceMemo View Post
    In case didn't see my solution I posted I'll quote myself





    SE said song palette is full, so they can only add new songs if they remove one. Massacre elegy is in game already so it takes up a song spot. MACC/MAB or MDB/SCB would be nice, but what would be removed if they added those types of songs?
    Looks like we're talking about bard rotations here, well, for that case and considering you are using your 1hr, that corsair in the 2nd party seems to be perfect, but again, unless the content lasts exactly 12 minutes instead of 10, I don't see why you can't just avoid using your +17% duration legs in order to just be able to do the 3 ballads right away. To me it's just a matter of adjusting all my songs gear so they all last the same.
    (0)

  4. #14
    Player VoiceMemo's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    546
    Character
    Voicememo
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlko View Post
    I agree with your solution making sense, but do you really think the current skeleton crew would be able to actually accomplish adding a song-specific priority system without borking everything else up AND without working on nothing else in the game for 3mon+? ^^;;

    As far as what to remove goes... Well, how often does anyone use all of the status resist songs? <,< Freed up song spots found!

    ... Seriously, when was the last time you actually wanted to have something like Goblin Gavotte or Shining Capriccio active? lol Would these not make worthy sacrifices to make room for spells that actually would improve bard's position as a buffer in comparison to geo?
    I think bard is in a fine position atm, it's just stagnant. Bard can cap magical haste alone with 2 spell, adds more attack or accuracy. Then you work WITH a geo, who has percentage based buffs to buff accuracy or attack.

    Bards job is to always work WITH the others in party, not against. Yes geo get a bigger buff from percentage boosts, but when you combine both, it makes it that much better.

    Much like the removal of buffs from enemy pets, we don't know what it would take to remove a song from the current listing and replacing it with another spell. I know of no instance where a spell has been removed in the game and replaced with another on any job in the games history.
    (0)

  5. #15
    Player Nyarlko's Avatar
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    Nov 2015
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    Character
    Nyarlko
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by VoiceMemo View Post
    I think bard is in a fine position atm, it's just stagnant. Bard can cap magical haste alone with 2 spell, adds more attack or accuracy. Then you work WITH a geo, who has percentage based buffs to buff accuracy or attack.

    Bards job is to always work WITH the others in party, not against. Yes geo get a bigger buff from percentage boosts, but when you combine both, it makes it that much better.

    Much like the removal of buffs from enemy pets, we don't know what it would take to remove a song from the current listing and replacing it with another spell. I know of no instance where a spell has been removed in the game and replaced with another on any job in the games history.
    Happens every single month for mobs in Ambuscade. So that much should be at least possible. ^^;;
    (0)
    “That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.”

  6. #16
    Player VoiceMemo's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    546
    Character
    Voicememo
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlko View Post
    Happens every single month for mobs in Ambuscade. So that much should be at least possible. ^^;;
    I don't believe that is the same situation. Ambuscade, a single instanced fight, was added years later after jobs were written, and is specifically designed to change every month. Jobs, spell list were coded during PS2 era, so depending how the coding was done, it could be difficult to remove and add a spell in the same place.
    (0)

  7. #17
    Player Nyarlko's Avatar
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    Nov 2015
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    Character
    Nyarlko
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by VoiceMemo View Post
    I don't believe that is the same situation. Ambuscade, a single instanced fight, was added years later after jobs were written, and is specifically designed to change every month. Jobs, spell list were coded during PS2 era, so depending how the coding was done, it could be difficult to remove and add a spell in the same place.
    The spell list for the mobs inside of ambuscade get overwritten each month. From what I understand, they are just part of the normal mob spell list. It is not like Ambuscade uses it's own .dat for the spells/abilities used inside of it. So we know that spells should be overwrite-able, which would mean that the main challenge in replacing spells w/ new ones would be dealing with new graphics.. Maybe we could try convincing the devs that we really don't care and they are welcome to reuse existing ones? XD
    (0)
    Last edited by Nyarlko; 01-11-2019 at 10:19 AM.
    “That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.”

  8. #18
    Player VoiceMemo's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    546
    Character
    Voicememo
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Bard adjustment listed for september 2019 update.

    "On the job adjustments front, this month we’re bringing some changes to bards, including the transitioning of some songs from merit point categories to scrolls. As you have no doubt surmised from similar updates to other jobs, we’ll be adding new merit point and augment categories in the place of those which no longer exist."

    The issue with adding new merit point categories, it is very hard to give up 5/5 Nightingale and Troubadour merits. So any new merit point category would have to be really good to give up any points in NT merits.

    I hope that there is more than the conversion of Sirvente and Dirge to spells and we get other updates.
    (0)

  9. #19
    Player Rwolf's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    373
    Character
    Rwolf
    World
    Bismarck
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    They are changing Tonko: San to make room for Siren. It was noticed on FFXIAH (source) that it was changed to Summoning Magic awhile back but left the name the same for now.
    (0)

  10. #20
    Player Jerbob's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
    Posts
    264
    Character
    Jeral
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Disclaimer: I potter about as BRD on occasion but I have minimal practical experience.

    I definitely agree with the OP that additional song slots should be a character attribute and not an instrument attribute. Dummy songs and the like are fine, and they work to a certain extent, and yes they do require skill and understanding to use correctly, but ultimately they are a bit of a cludge and, for me personally, they don't feel good to use. It would surprise me if SE intended them to be used this way, but clearly they've decided to roll with it.

    The issues with songs not overwriting as desired when there are different amounts of songs+/duration+ was something that really put me off Bard. It was something I could deal with, but it was an additional frustration on top of dummy songs and the like. What about something like this - a "wipe the slate clean" solution for a single target:

    Caesura
    Bard lv.50
    Recast time: 0:05
    Ends all songs previously sung by you on a target.

    I think it's better to address the issue with an abstraction than to tinker with equipment values - those will change in the future, and therefore the problem could easily reappear in a different guise.
    (0)
    Last edited by Jerbob; 09-07-2019 at 05:36 AM.

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