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  1. #21
    Player Stompa's Avatar
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    Aug 2012
    Location
    Remora
    Posts
    633
    Character
    Nebula
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    You can't change the treasure pool system. People D/C during battles, and then they log back in and they should be allowed to join party and cast lots. This has happened to me many times.

    Re; [paraphrased] "we need mercs because all the veteran players would quit if they couldn't merc."

    What about all the new players who quit because the game is no longer a challenging adventure world to be enjoyed with a group of friends, in a bonding experience that lasts a lifetime?

    With mercing, the game loses this friendship and adventure, and becomes just a trip to the Shopping Mall where you just buy everything you need. How many new players have quit because mercing killed all their potential adventures. You need to weigh this alongside how many veterans quit because they can't merc.

    Also, not all veterans are involved in merc activities. A lot of veterans spend their free time Helping Other People For Free. A lot of veterans enjoy helping new players. And we do it for FREE!

    In fact, being helpful and friendly to new players, is what made FFXI such a special game in the early days.

    FFXI was actually famous in the gaming world, for having a strong community spirit, with advanced players who would sacrifice days, weeks, months, even years, just to help another player obtain a single piece of gear, or clear some difficult mission.

    The happiest early memories I had in FFXI, have been when another player gave up their own Free Time, just to help me with something, even if it was trivial and beneath them.

    My other happiest memories of FFXI are when I have helped new players, by giving up my free time to help them, to get them started in FFXI, and to make them feel comfortable in Vana'diel. It made them happy. And when I saw them being happy, it made me happy.

    This is the FFXI spirit that has existed since at least 2004. This is why FFXI is special. We all share a deep love of Vana'diel, and we help each other, because when we help each other, we are making Vana'diel a happier place with a brighter future.
    (1)

  2. #22
    Player DarkValefor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    65
    Character
    Kukiki
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    So the best solution for those who want to avoid mercenaries seems to be moving servers, that way mercs can still be doing their thing and you don't have to be dealing with them. Seems fair enough and benefitial to everyone.

    I play in Carbuncle at the moment, I played in Asura around 2 years ago for like one year and a half but was unable to play my favourite jobs because almost every group didn't wanna think ahead of the strategies guides stand.

    I am very happy playing in a different server than Asura since the lack of population seems to make people less selective for party setups, and it is working great.

    The problem we are facing in small servers tho, is a massive lack of supply, it's really hard to find the stuff your job may need in the auction house, more even now that some of that stuff requires escutcheons to make, but it's player's choice what server you play in.

    Every server has its advantages and disadvantages, for example, I see people in thr forums complaining or requesting to add more apex mobs but in my server most of the apex camps have been open during this campaign. In the end it's your choice
    (2)

  3. #23
    Player Afania's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
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    1,445
    Character
    Afania
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Stompa View Post
    What about all the new players who quit because the game is no longer a challenging adventure world to be enjoyed with a group of friends, in a bonding experience that lasts a lifetime?
    Merc doesn't remove new player's ability to enjoy the game with a group of friends. If you want to group with friends, then don't buy gears. Merc doesn't affect you if you don't use merc services.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stompa View Post
    With mercing, the game loses this friendship and adventure, and becomes just a trip to the Shopping Mall where you just buy everything you need.

    Not convinced with this statement.

    If this statement is true then what you are saying is FFXI does not have friendship nor adventure this entire time because merc already exist, for very long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stompa View Post
    Also, not all veterans are involved in merc activities. A lot of veterans spend their free time Helping Other People For Free.
    I never say ALL vet players only merc but never help others for free. I only said it's a good incentive to keep people keep doing old endgame content like Omen/Escha instead of running out of things to do and quit...
    (1)

  4. #24
    Player Stompa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Remora
    Posts
    633
    Character
    Nebula
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Afania View Post
    Merc doesn't remove new player's ability to enjoy the game with a group of friends. If you want to group with friends, then don't buy gears. Merc doesn't affect you if you don't use merc services.
    _

    Not convinced with this statement.

    If this statement is true then what you are saying is FFXI does not have friendship nor adventure this entire time because merc already exist, for very long time.

    _

    I never say ALL vet players only merc but never help others for free. I only said it's a good incentive to keep people keep doing old endgame content like Omen/Escha instead of running out of things to do and quit...

    Well.

    New players join the game, they don't know how it is played, and they are looking to Veteran Players for GUIDANCE.

    As we see in this thread, many of the Veteran players are /yelling merc shouts all day.

    New players hear the wall-to-wall merc yells all day, and just assume that just buying progress from veteran mercs, is how everybody plays the game.

    I was on Remora for six years, and I never heard a single merc shout, not once, in six years. We had no choice but to play the game, camp our own NMs, learn to play our jobs expertly, learn to deal with failure, and develop endurance to attain long-term goals. The option of buying from mercs did not exist, not for 99% of normal players on our server. So we made our own friend groups, our own linkshells, and we beat the game by ourselves, the way the game was intended to be played. And in doing so, we developed stout friendships that have lasted for sixteen years.

    On Leviathan, I have heard maybe three merc shouts in eight years. Again, a new player is unlikely to hear merc shouts. They will play the game, and team up with other new players to have exciting adventures, and form lasting friendships.

    Yes, it is true, that we can all do whatever we want, but a new player is looking to Veterans for Guidance. New players place their trust in Veterans. And if Veterans are acting like Gangster Mercs, just selling everything, then the new players are going to think that this is normal traditional FFXI behaviour, which it is not. This was always an outlaw minority behaviour, until recent times, on certain servers.

    And if we take a group of ten new adventurers, five of them hear all the /yells and decide to join a merc run, the remaining five new adventurers will have lost five potential allies, who could have played the game with them, in the normal adventuring way. Eventually all ten of them will just go join the merc runs, since they will feel left out if they decide to play the game normally.

    I am opposed to mercenary, gangster, bandit activity. I feel it kills the adventuring RPG spirit of the game. It steals adventures and friendships from entire generations of new players.

    What we are talking about is the dynamic situation at ground level. Not little pinhole mini-quotes on a forum.
    (0)

  5. #25
    Player Sirmarki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    855
    Character
    Sirmarki
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkValefor View Post
    So the best solution for those who want to avoid mercenaries seems to be moving servers
    Not at all, that would be a pretty regressive step. The less populated servers won't be around forever, eventually they will all be merged down into larger/populated servers.
    Smaller servers are good if you have a good solid group, and commitment. PUG shouts are very uncommon (you can see that in the yell history on smaller servers) - Anyway, that's a whole other discussion.

    The problem is with mercing is the true intention behind it, and if it's legitimate or not. Does it break TOS? Where does the gil end up? and is there third party software involved (ie bots)?
    I also can't see how repeat killing of the same monsters all day long is "fun" (for anyone). I would think its the least thing any "veteran" would want to do, who has completed most aspects of the game. It's almost like a job.
    (0)

  6. #26
    Player Afania's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
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    1,445
    Character
    Afania
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Stompa View Post
    Well.

    New players join the game, they don't know how it is played, and they are looking to Veteran Players for GUIDANCE.

    As we see in this thread, many of the Veteran players are /yelling merc shouts all day.

    New players hear the wall-to-wall merc yells all day, and just assume that just buying progress from veteran mercs, is how everybody plays the game.

    I was on Remora for six years, and I never heard a single merc shout, not once, in six years. We had no choice but to play the game, camp our own NMs, learn to play our jobs expertly, learn to deal with failure, and develop endurance to attain long-term goals. The option of buying from mercs did not exist, not for 99% of normal players on our server. So we made our own friend groups, our own linkshells, and we beat the game by ourselves, the way the game was intended to be played. And in doing so, we developed stout friendships that have lasted for sixteen years.

    On Leviathan, I have heard maybe three merc shouts in eight years. Again, a new player is unlikely to hear merc shouts. They will play the game, and team up with other new players to have exciting adventures, and form lasting friendships.

    Yes, it is true, that we can all do whatever we want, but a new player is looking to Veterans for Guidance. New players place their trust in Veterans. And if Veterans are acting like Gangster Mercs, just selling everything, then the new players are going to think that this is normal traditional FFXI behaviour, which it is not. This was always an outlaw minority behaviour, until recent times, on certain servers.

    And if we take a group of ten new adventurers, five of them hear all the /yells and decide to join a merc run, the remaining five new adventurers will have lost five potential allies, who could have played the game with them, in the normal adventuring way. Eventually all ten of them will just go join the merc runs, since they will feel left out if they decide to play the game normally.

    I am opposed to mercenary, gangster, bandit activity. I feel it kills the adventuring RPG spirit of the game. It steals adventures and friendships from entire generations of new players.

    What we are talking about is the dynamic situation at ground level. Not little pinhole mini-quotes on a forum.
    It only seem that way because the progression is different from 75 era I think. people did sell items at 75, just those are endgame drops like sea drops, sky gear etc. Majority of new players can't even use these item without a 75 job, nor afford it.

    In 75, majority of new player would spend months* to lv a job to 75, but now instead of spending months to lv 99 they spend the same amount of time to gear up character doing beginner endgame or CP pt. Safe to say that the "beginner's endgame" content these days are equal to EXP pt at 75.

    But yeah, merc always exist in game. Just that the demographic spread to wider audiences(for both buyer and seller) in 2018.

    About your argument that "play the game intended to be played". I do agree that the game is a lot different from 75 days now, and people are less patient, and less likely to make friends, or group with others. but I don't think merc is the only reason causing all these. I blame QoL changes.

    Ever since SE introduce trusts, homepoint, etc, game became a LOT more solo friendly and game pace became a LOT faster. Once playerbase are used to a faster paced game, they live in a world that everything just....happens so much faster. As a result, everyone become less patient. Pt has to happen in 30 min(instead of 3hr like 75 days), endgame item has to obtained in less than an hour(instead of months or years like 75 days). Since trust exist, we no longer need to rely on others for most things, so we stop making friends because that's not all that necessary.

    Merc service is just the result of people's desire to make progress faster and spend less energy to build connections in a video game. Chicken or egg first? SE created this "everything comes and goes fast" FFXI in the first place, not merc.

    Like I said, there are no moral issue with mercing. People desperately look for a target to point fingers if the game changes into something that they don't like, but if there are no market nor desire to make progress faster solo, why would merc even exist?

    I think at this point we should just accept the fact that game is already heading toward a direction that you and me may not like. And deal with it. Nothing can be done otherwise until SE make FFXI even more time consuming and less solo friendly than it currently is. Currently there are no sign of SE heading that direction at all
    (0)
    Last edited by Afania; 09-03-2018 at 11:36 PM.

  7. #27
    Player Stompa's Avatar
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    Aug 2012
    Location
    Remora
    Posts
    633
    Character
    Nebula
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Afania View Post
    It only seem that way because the progression is different from 75 era I think. people did sell items at 75, just those are endgame drops like sea drops, sky gear etc. Majority of new players can't even use these item without a 75 job, nor afford it.

    In 75, majority of new player would spend months* to lv a job to 75, but now instead of spending months to lv 99 they spend the same amount of time to gear up character doing beginner endgame or CP pt. Safe to say that the "beginner's endgame" content these days are equal to EXP pt at 75.

    But yeah, merc always exist in game. Just that the demographic spread to wider audiences(for both buyer and seller) in 2018.

    About your argument that "play the game intended to be played". I do agree that the game is a lot different from 75 days now, and people are less patient, and less likely to make friends, or group with others. but I don't think merc is the only reason causing all these. I blame QoL changes.

    Ever since SE introduce trusts, homepoint, etc, game became a LOT more solo friendly and game pace became a LOT faster. Once playerbase are used to a faster paced game, they live in a world that everything just....happens so much faster. As a result, everyone become less patient. Pt has to happen in 30 min(instead of 3hr like 75 days), endgame item has to obtained in less than an hour(instead of months or years like 75 days). Since trust exist, we no longer need to rely on others for most things, so we stop making friends because that's not all that necessary.

    Merc service is just the result of people's desire to make progress faster and spend less energy to build connections in a video game. Chicken or egg first? SE created this "everything comes and goes fast" FFXI in the first place, not merc.

    Like I said, there are no moral issue with mercing. People desperately look for a target to point fingers if the game changes into something that they don't like, but if there are no market nor desire to make progress faster solo, why would merc even exist?

    I think at this point we should just accept the fact that game is already heading toward a direction that you and me may not like. And deal with it. Nothing can be done otherwise until SE make FFXI even more time consuming and less solo friendly than it currently is. Currently there are no sign of SE heading that direction at all
    I do agree with you on several points, particularly the increased speed.

    I was opposed to the rise from level 75 to level 99, and I was opposed the ilvl system. The reason for this is that it turns all the old areas into Ghost Towns, full of too-weak mobs and feeble NMs that drop level 1-75 gear which is no longer relevant.

    I feel that we should have kept level 75, and just added new exotic level 75 gear, and new level 75 areas, instead of going to 99 and ilvl. This would have kept the old areas alive and vibrant, and dangerous!

    Also I was opposed to the Exp Spikes, with base Exp going from 15 Exp for EP mobs, to basically 3000 Exp for EP mobs if you wear a certain ring and fight at certain times. The avalanche of bonus Exp from RoE etc. was also a bad idea, imho.

    I miss the old Exp parties. They were social, I made new friends every day, when I joined Exp parties. They gave the game a solid adventuring backbone.

    I don't see trusts as a problem, as they are inferior to real players. If anything, Trusts remind us how important real players are, and why it is better to have human friends than AI constructs. I see Trusts as a fun strategy mini-game, a stop-gap which is optional, and serves to remind us of the importance of having real friends to party with.

    I don't really have a problem with home-point warps, although I think there should be a lot less of them in towns, and hardly any in in wilderness areas.

    But despite the (in my opinion) major mistakes, especially the rise from level 75 to 119, and the XP avalanche, etc. I still play the game and I still love Vana'diel, and I don't merc stuff. I just help people who ask me for help, or people who /shout for help.

    I don't blame SE for changing the game, they were adapting to try and attract a far less patient generation of gamers, who didn't want to wait and struggle to get to level 75. The changes happened, but I believe that the intentions behind those changes were good intentions, although deeply misguided and with ultimately sorrowful consequences.

    But I don't believe that becoming a Merc is an appropriate response to the faster game. I prefer to play my locked level 75 mules, in the old areas, and to keep the memories of the old game alive, in my small circle of likeminded friends. This is more fun than being a Merc, and it is keeping an important traditional FFXI gaming culture alive, even though this level 75 culture is now no longer the mainstream FFXI game.
    (0)

  8. #28
    Player Sirmarki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
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    855
    Character
    Sirmarki
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Afania View Post
    Merc doesn't remove new player's ability to enjoy the game with a group of friends. If you want to group with friends, then don't buy gears. Merc doesn't affect you if you don't use merc services.
    So if NPC's were added selling all the equipment from every single battle, then that's fine?

    It's the exact same thing, and it would have a negative effect on the game.
    (1)

  9. #29
    Player Isola's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    420
    Character
    Cylinath
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Sirmarki View Post
    So if NPC's were added selling all the equipment from every single battle, then that's fine?

    It's the exact same thing, and it would have a negative effect on the game.
    Pretty much this. You would just be allowed to buy r/e gear from NPCs, it's literally no different. Matter of fact, I'd love to be able to pay NPCs for gear. NPCs can't price gouge.

    AND it creates a gil sink. Which despite Squares best effort, cannot do. You just solved all the problems accidentally.
    (0)

  10. #30
    Player Afania's Avatar
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    Character
    Afania
    World
    Bahamut
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    BRD Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Sirmarki View Post
    So if NPC's were added selling all the equipment from every single battle, then that's fine?

    It's the exact same thing, and it would have a negative effect on the game.

    It's not, lol.

    Buying gears from NPC directly(without another group actually enter the content and do them) shorten content's lifespan. Merc service actually prolong content's lifespan because endgame groups continue to do content after gears capped.

    The difference being community ended up doing content less if everyone buys gear from NPC, and everyone (at least merc) do content more times if they merc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isola View Post
    Pretty much this. You would just be allowed to buy r/e gear from NPCs, it's literally no different.

    So people do Omen once to unlock gears from NPC to buy, then never enter Omen again. Instead of do Omen for 2 years so they can continue to get something out of it after ex/rare capped? Big difference.

    The entire point of MMO is that content should last as long as possible and people do them as much as possible too, not the other way around.
    (1)
    Last edited by Afania; 09-04-2018 at 10:00 AM.

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