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  1. #21
    Player Shiyo's Avatar
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    Jun 2011
    Posts
    705
    Character
    Kitori
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 99
    No one did any of those things.

    You simply won't change your mind and will just say "nuh-uh monk is bad" until you're blue in the face. I mean, you compared monk(or any job, honestly) to summoner which isn't fair at all. You also said samurai is good at not feeding TP and equal to monks 75% subtle blow which makes absolutely no sense and think monks higher HP isn't valuable. You just say "no its not" to everything, there's really no point in discussing anything with you.

    As I said, we get you don't like monk, but the job is fine. Sure, it needs some slight buffs, but it's not unusable and not bad, it's just not the best in every situation, and no job besides RUNE(can SE stop catering to this job? it's getting old) and GEO really are.
    (0)

  2. #22
    Player Khelek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    16
    Character
    Khelek
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    DRK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Halley View Post
    Dancer is already in a fantastic spot if you know how to play it properly.

    Monk does need some upwards adjusting, just not as much as people make it seem like. Just fix Shijin and Smite, give some form of offhand/make fencer work for mnk and maybe some more smite trait
    Agreed, dancer can definitely perform well, and has great utility. Not a lot of people end up playing it sadly, since like you said, you do need to know how to play it properly, and there isn't a lot of up to date help out there for getting into it.

    I feel like the perception of what people are asking for is a bit skewed, as I agree with your suggested solution here. I don't think anyone is asking for more beyond that, in terms of power scaling. The only other areas that could just some work are minor, such as certain abilities that would benefit from an update. When was the last time anyone used counterstance for example? It's like a slow mijin gakure at this point.
    (0)

  3. #23
    Player Khelek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    16
    Character
    Khelek
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    DRK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiyo View Post
    No one did any of those things.

    You simply won't change your mind and will just say "nuh-uh monk is bad" until you're blue in the face. I mean, you compared monk(or any job, honestly) to summoner which isn't fair at all. You also said samurai is good at not feeding TP and equal to monks 75% subtle blow which makes absolutely no sense and think monks higher HP isn't valuable. You just say "no its not" to everything, there's really no point in discussing anything with you.

    As I said, we get you don't like monk, but the job is fine. Sure, it needs some slight buffs, but it's not unusable and not bad, it's just not the best in every situation, and no job besides RUNE(can SE stop catering to this job? it's getting old) and GEO really are.
    Just to be clear, you did it again in this very message. This is the last time I'm replying to you here, as I see no reason to attempt discussing with someone who clearly doesn't want to.

    I compared it to summoner. Summoner is a DD. Summoner is an alternative job in FFXI. I compared their ability to not feed TP while dealing damage. I did not compare hundred fists to conduit.

    Samurai is fantastic at not feeding TP. As you're using the maximum potential subtle blow achievable for MNK, I'll remind you that SAM reaches 65%, hits the enemy far less often, and the TP fed vs damage dealt ratio as a result is fantastic. Yet in almost every scenario that's irrelevant for the reasons I mentioned in the earlier post.

    Monk's higher HP is negligible, and isn't even higher than a fair few melee jobs while in defensive or hybrid gear. Even if you're comparing monk's hp to others' while wearing nothing but weapons, the difference between say a MNK and a WAR is less than 100hp.

    I asked you to please not presume to speak for me, and you keep doing it anyways. I hope whatever is troubling you gets better so you can be a happier person. Good day.
    (0)

  4. #24
    Player Shiyo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    705
    Character
    Kitori
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 99
    Nothing anyone here types means anything, there is on CM for the English forums. Google translate to japanese.

    Also, seriously dude? You're the one with the issue, you do nothing but call everything "irrelevant" or "worthless" make silly comparisons. Sounds like all you want is an echo chamber.

    Here's some more people with much more indepth feedback someone gave about monk being useful/good situationally
    https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/3...e/188/#3326040

    Read "Comeatmebros" posts and ones in the next pages. He's actually tested monks as the only DD vs vinipata as well.
    (0)
    Last edited by Shiyo; 04-30-2018 at 12:29 PM.

  5. #25
    Player Nyarlko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    1,484
    Character
    Nyarlko
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Khelek View Post
    I like the idea to shift focus to becoming a viable tank. Maybe rework counterstance or footwork to be a low cooldown, high duration tanking stance, with crusade's enmity boost and a change to the counter acc check while on. I doubt they would put in the work required to adjust the rest of the job though. Would require changes to give monk hate tools beyond what a subjob would offer etc. If they're not keen on putting in the work to adjust WSs, I think it might be too much to hope for.
    I kinda figure that it would feel safer for the devs to change their focus (or create one since MNK does feel like one of the rather aimless jobs,) rather than buff damage output. It would be simpler/safer to buff MNKs defensive abilities up to viable tanking levels than to adjust damage capabilities upward from a dev perspective. Any direct adjustment to WS benefits more than just MNK after all, and with the way the game scales with highest end gear any change that would be noticeable for the majority has the potential to be gamebreaking overpowered at the top. That's why I suggested using MNK-only job traits to address the issues involved rather than direct changes to anything that could affect multiple jobs.

    As long as it was possible to raise Counter rate to match PLD parry / RUN parry as far as damage intake goes, then I like the idea of turning Counterstance into an actual stance. Give counters an enmity bonus, reduce/remove the accuracy check on counters, and maybe some sort of enmity loss reduction on successful guards? Enmity generation shouldn't be difficult to adjust (they could raise Boost to 10,000CE/10,000VE if they felt like it.)

    The only actual complaint I have about MNK as a non-MNK-main player (though I do have a 119 MNK alt, with enough experience to know how the job works,) is the inability to engage with Boost active issue. >_<;; This problem bugs me enough to keep me away from the job on it's own. I still think there should be a way to implement a bypass specifically for Boost, but devs have bigger fish to fry I guess. Issues with MA match to same problems with DW and while both need to be looked at IMO, it's not a job-specific problem but a weapon-type issue at the system level, so not sure it is really relevant to this thread or not. :/
    (0)
    “That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.”

  6. #26
    Player Khelek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    16
    Character
    Khelek
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    DRK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlko View Post
    The only actual complaint I have about MNK as a non-MNK-main player is the inability to engage with Boost active issue.
    I wish I could wrap my head around the boost change as a whole... It was too weak to be worth using during combat before, so they changed it into something that's even worse to use. Guessing the test team was busy that day.
    (0)

  7. #27
    Player Halley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    232
    Character
    Zeiry
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    I see what they were trying to do with boost... what they /meant/ to do, was a great idea.... but they did it wrong.

    Engage, use boost, run up while boost is ticking down, get a large single attack in, fantastic. or, use boost, get a strong ws and the delay after boost is the small penalty. (you get a delay anyway after a ws)

    ........however. The delay is waaaaaaaaaaaaay too long, the boost isn't good enough, and it doesn't do (anything, or nearly nothing) to ws's at all.

    They completely failed.

    Simple fix, DNC already has the answer. Turn boost into a flourish clone. And drop the delay.
    (0)
    Last edited by Halley; 04-30-2018 at 04:02 PM.

  8. #28
    Player BBWallace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    117
    Character
    Topace
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    I'm confused on what they want to do with MNK now. It was apparently intended to be a tank I heard somewhere? And judging from the JP category and gifts it seems that what SE was trying to push it towards. I do have a couple of qualms with the job boost is weird and I've still haven't figured out use it I've been reading up on it and it just confuses me more. MNK tp gain is just sloppy with the massive amounts of MA being thrown at it. It's one of the only jobs I feel gets punished for mastering it. The WS damage is simply not up to par in the slightest when the best WS you have is Howling Fist you know you have a problem. It's White Damage is not enough to justify it taking a spot over another DD.

    Countering is also a bit wonky to me.While it is possible to cap counter without the use of counterstance I feel like the counter damage is severely gimped when you do that. Another thing that hurts MNK survivability is the lack of counterable things and the massive amounts of Status Effects you get bombarded with. Using Counterstance your defense gets cut in half basically turning you into playdough not using counterstance you then have to resort to using ambu gear and jolt counters which takes away from the counter damage buffs your relic gear provides.


    I would like to see MNK move into a more tanky role would be fun to play.
    (0)

  9. #29
    Player Nyarlko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    1,484
    Character
    Nyarlko
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Halley View Post
    I see what they were trying to do with boost... what they /meant/ to do, was a great idea.... but they did it wrong.

    Engage, use boost, run up while boost is ticking down, get a large single attack in, fantastic. or, use boost, get a strong ws and the delay after boost is the small penalty. (you get a delay anyway after a ws)

    ........however. The delay is waaaaaaaaaaaaay too long, the boost isn't good enough, and it doesn't do (anything, or nearly nothing) to ws's at all.

    They completely failed.

    Simple fix, DNC already has the answer. Turn boost into a flourish clone. And drop the delay.
    Boost does work as intended.. It's just much more complicated now then the old braindead spammage.

    The delay is confusingly high without being delay capped, which makes it actually dangerous to use at lower levels. If you're 10MNK and pop Boost, you are going to be doing nothing but imitate a punching bag for a good 15sec or so.. The devs did not properly explain the mechanics behind it when it when live, and I find myself explaining it to newbies in my ls as I do explaining how learning works for BLU because the way Boost works is very unintuitive. I still think there should be a graphical effect that grows with time passing to indicate "powering up" and a better clue on the usage timing than counting in your head IF you know that's what you are supposed to do...

    JIC anyone reading this is also confused, Boost duration is based on 3xDelayxDelayReduction, and for MNK, this has a lower limit of ~5sec (288 Delay, but there appears to be a 5sec minimum on Boost duration regardless of actual delay). Boost effect scales with how long it has remaining on the duration, so for maximum effect on a non-melee swing you want to try to hit your WS with ~2-3sec remaining on the timer. The time elapsed doesn't matter, so even if you push the Boost duration up to 45sec+, it will have the same effect on the next attack at 2sec remaining as if that duration was 5sec. Since the buff timer icon durations disappear and the icons start blinking at 5sec remaining, you will have to practice counting down in your head to get the proper timing down. I never got feedback from an awesome MNK on how high they could push the actual buff from Boost, but with my poorly geared alts, I got ~3k-4k extra damage on both my MNK and my DRG/mnk. I don't know how high someone who has proper gear for it would be able to push it or if it would ever be worth using. IMO, the best way to use it (assuming delay capped) is to pop Boost, then another damage increasing JA, then a WS. If you do this sequence, while delay capped, then there should be no perceivable penalty before your next melee swing.

    It feels like they were trying to push it's usage towards being similar to Sneak Attack actually.. But unlike SA, there is no extra buff to the JA when used as main job MNK. :/ I say double-triple the effect for a MNK/sub and it might be good enough to actually get used regularly. Everything else about is technically OK, but the preventing engagement thing will always irritate me.
    (0)
    “That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.”

  10. #30
    Player BBWallace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    117
    Character
    Topace
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlko View Post
    Boost does work as intended.. It's just much more complicated now then the old braindead spammage.

    The delay is confusingly high without being delay capped, which makes it actually dangerous to use at lower levels. If you're 10MNK and pop Boost, you are going to be doing nothing but imitate a punching bag for a good 15sec or so.. The devs did not properly explain the mechanics behind it when it when live, and I find myself explaining it to newbies in my ls as I do explaining how learning works for BLU because the way Boost works is very unintuitive. I still think there should be a graphical effect that grows with time passing to indicate "powering up" and a better clue on the usage timing than counting in your head IF you know that's what you are supposed to do...

    JIC anyone reading this is also confused, Boost duration is based on 3xDelayxDelayReduction, and for MNK, this has a lower limit of ~5sec (288 Delay, but there appears to be a 5sec minimum on Boost duration regardless of actual delay). Boost effect scales with how long it has remaining on the duration, so for maximum effect on a non-melee swing you want to try to hit your WS with ~2-3sec remaining on the timer. The time elapsed doesn't matter, so even if you push the Boost duration up to 45sec+, it will have the same effect on the next attack at 2sec remaining as if that duration was 5sec. Since the buff timer icon durations disappear and the icons start blinking at 5sec remaining, you will have to practice counting down in your head to get the proper timing down. I never got feedback from an awesome MNK on how high they could push the actual buff from Boost, but with my poorly geared alts, I got ~3k-4k extra damage on both my MNK and my DRG/mnk. I don't know how high someone who has proper gear for it would be able to push it or if it would ever be worth using. IMO, the best way to use it (assuming delay capped) is to pop Boost, then another damage increasing JA, then a WS. If you do this sequence, while delay capped, then there should be no perceivable penalty before your next melee swing.

    It feels like they were trying to push it's usage towards being similar to Sneak Attack actually.. But unlike SA, there is no extra buff to the JA when used as main job MNK. :/ I say double-triple the effect for a MNK/sub and it might be good enough to actually get used regularly. Everything else about is technically OK, but the preventing engagement thing will always irritate me.
    One day your're on I would be happy to test boost effects on WS and in general. I'm pretty close to BiS on every WS beside shijin spiral which is absolute garbage. I'll take your advice and go test out on some mandies in ceizek. I just avoided using the JA as a whole because the delay part.
    (0)

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