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  1. #11
    Player Khelek's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    16
    Character
    Khelek
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    DRK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiyo View Post
    Monk is fine. OP plays in a linkshell that 18 mans the entire game so he'll never see a purpose for monk. It's not meant for that type of playstyle, and you're always going to be better off coming another job when you TP burn things with 18.

    It's niche and uniqueness are for lowmanning, not 18 manning. Monk cannot be buffed to fit into 18 man zergs without breaking the game for lowman groups. Not every job needs to be good in every situation, that'd be bad for the game.

    Monk is fine.

    Sincerely, someone who plays monk for it's unique niche situational uses(which there are actually many of)
    Please don't presume to speak for me. A majority of the content, I enjoy in a group consisting of me and two others.

    This niche and uniqueness you speak of is completely fabricated. There is not one thing I can think of in the game, with any size group, where I would consider monk a good choice over the other options. They simply do not do anything atm that another job can't do better. You mention these many uses, but despite all of the adjectives used I see no examples that could help further the discussion. I have been playing monk since back when there was only a handful of us around who even bothered to cap guarding, so I've seen pretty much every iteration of the monk's role. And it not being for groups with X number of players is neither intended, nor is it particularily true. Just because you can't effectively use it for something other than casual play or old content currently, does not mean it is meant to do that, or that it is particularily good at it compared to any alternative.

    Just because you have chosen to play monk does not mean you are in the wrong for doing so. But it also doesn't have any correlation to the validity of the concerns brought up in this thread, or the viability of monk in today's endgame (which is what this thread is addressing, as mentioned in the op). You're not being accused of being bad, just because you've chosen to play something that is currently bad; Please keep it civil, constructive, and based in facts.
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  2. #12
    Player Khelek's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    16
    Character
    Khelek
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    DRK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Kayin View Post
    Its mechanics operate much differently from the other Jobs and this was not at all taken into account by development
    Well put together post. I feel you hit the nail on the head with this in particular.

    As much as I don't miss the boost portion, I do miss chi blast. I've always hoped that they would end up allowing mab to modify it, have them lower the cooldown, and maybe even allow it to magic burst. Heck, could even have it be no cooldown, consume all TP, and be an alternative to WSing, if done right.
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  3. #13
    Player Shiyo's Avatar
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    Jun 2011
    Posts
    705
    Character
    Kitori
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 99
    HQ/NQ Kenda.
    Incredibly high max HP.
    5% DT belt that's BIS for TPing.
    75% subtle blow + penance(100% uptime with 2 monks)
    Feeds 1/16th of the TP of non-subtle blow jobs.
    Mantra.

    These are all insane niches and make many fights much safer and easier, and allow for a lot more mistakes/slower reflexes. Consider bringing MNKs to vinipata for example, to make it a lot easier. Monks damage also isn't that much lower - we're at a point where we have so much gear and buffed supports(brd being buffed recently) that nearly any DD job is capable of clearing content. Monks are capable enough as a DD to bring ONLY mnks to albumen and clear it safely and quickly(Have seen this multiple times).

    Monk is a super durable DD, it will never be a "top tier" dd, but being durable makes bringing Monk's to content a lot easier on the mnk players, and the healers healing them. Less tp moves, higher hp to survive, lots of mevasion, it's great. It's also why Ninja is such a great DD now despite doing less damage, very durable. Durable DD's are nothing new, there was a time when the game was BLU ONRY because of how durable they are.

    Name another job that feeds as little TP as Monk? You can't.

    Name a DD as durable as monk in pure DD gear. Bluemage? Dispels removes ALL their durability. Ninja? Shadows might be useless, migiwari might prove useless on x boss, less hp than monk.

    Monk has never been, and never will be a top tier DD. You use them for safety and reliably. A dead DD does zero damage.
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    Last edited by Shiyo; 04-29-2018 at 01:17 PM.

  4. #14
    Player Khelek's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    16
    Character
    Khelek
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    DRK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiyo View Post
    HQ/NQ Kenda.
    Incredibly high max HP.
    5% DT belt that's BIS for TPing.
    75% subtle blow + penance(100% uptime with 2 monks)
    Feeds 1/16th of the TP of non-subtle blow jobs.
    Mantra.

    These are all insane niches and make many fights much safer and easier, and allow for a lot more mistakes/slower reflexes. Consider bringing MNKs to vinipata for example, to make it a lot easier. Monks damage also isn't that much lower - we're at a point where we have so much gear and buffed supports(brd being buffed recently) that nearly any DD job is capable of clearing content. Monks are capable enough as a DD to bring ONLY mnks to albumen and clear it safely and quickly(Have seen this multiple times).

    Monk is a super durable DD, it will never be a "top tier" dd, but being durable makes bringing Monk's to content a lot easier on the mnk players, and the healers healing them. Less tp moves, higher hp to survive, lots of mevasion, it's great. It's also why Ninja is such a great DD now despite doing less damage, very durable. Durable DD's are nothing new, there was a time when the game was BLU ONRY because of how durable they are.

    Name another job that feeds as little TP as Monk? You can't.

    Name a DD as durable as monk in pure DD gear. Bluemage? Dispels removes ALL their durability. Ninja? Shadows might be useless, migiwari might prove useless on x boss, less hp than monk.

    Monk has never been, and never will be a top tier DD. You use them for safety and reliably. A dead DD does zero damage.
    Thank you for bringing some examples. Let's break this down, because these are valid points, and by all means SHOULD be cause for MNK to be viable.

    #1: HQ/NQ kenda is not unique to monk.

    #2: Max HP on monks is barely any different from other melee, and in cases where max HP would matter, monk doesn't keep the lead it may have had due to gear options.

    #3: It's a good belt. It is not enough to make up for anything.

    #4 & 5: TP feeding is generally a non issue, as most relevant mobs either have enough regain to use their TP moves at the same rate, or don't do anything that can't be dealt with by your healer. If the tp move is devastating, you'd not be up in its face, or even use a cat, as that's more reliable. Thanks to kenda, SAM is preferable by a mile if you want to slow down the mob's TP gain without sacrificing damage.

    #6: See #2. Max HP rarely matters to the extent that you'd want to build a team composition around it, and other jobs get plenty of hp+ in their hybrid gear, in which they outperform mnk still.

    #7: I would call them insufficient niches, despite which, bringing mnk instead of another option makes the fights take much longer, forcing your players to rebuff more often, and introducing a lot more chances to screw up, or lose focus. Monk damage is about 30-40% behind other melee in equal quality gear, with ideal buffs. Just because it is capable of clearing content does not mean it shouldn't be adjusted to keep up with the other melee.

    #8: Nobody is asking for it to be a top tier DD, and it is definitely not any more durable than other melee currently, such as WAR, DRG, SAM, DRK, BLU. We simply want it to be a viable option when presented with choice of job.

    #9: Don't have to, it's largely irrelevant. But SAM. If we're talking all jobs though, SMN literally feeds negative TP by alternating rage BPs with mew.

    #10: WAR, DRG, SAM, RUN, anything ranged, etc.

    #11: It has, but we aren't trying to make it that either, as we've stated several times in the thread. If you need safety and reliability, you go with the myriad of better options. Monk's survivability is not significantly better, if better at all, than other jobs, so I'd rather go with the other ones that won't die, but still do good damage. And as it is as applicable as the statement that a dead dd does zero damage; A dead monster can't kill you.
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    Last edited by Khelek; 04-30-2018 at 04:36 AM.

  5. #15
    Player Nyarlko's Avatar
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    Nov 2015
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    1,523
    Character
    Nyarlko
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    I would like to see MNK get a bit more support towards being a viable tank at this point. Give MNK a trait that gives 2x Guard and/or Counter checks (to parallel parry+shield, parry+parry, etc.) a trait that doubles the non-standard ilvl stats on H2H weapons since it's apparently a tech issue to add strap equivalents (so not H2H skill, but direct accuracy+, Double Attack, etc), and address the complaints/problems surrounding Martial Arts / TP loss (again, thru a MNK-only trait IF the holdup is concern about over-buffing PUP.) Might be nice if the accuracy check on Counter was removed or lowered to reasonable-in-tanking-gear levels at least.
    (1)
    “That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.”

  6. #16
    Player Khelek's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    16
    Character
    Khelek
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    DRK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlko View Post
    I would like to see MNK get a bit more support towards being a viable tank at this point. Give MNK a trait that gives 2x Guard and/or Counter checks (to parallel parry+shield, parry+parry, etc.) a trait that doubles the non-standard ilvl stats on H2H weapons since it's apparently a tech issue to add strap equivalents (so not H2H skill, but direct accuracy+, Double Attack, etc), and address the complaints/problems surrounding Martial Arts / TP loss (again, thru a MNK-only trait IF the holdup is concern about over-buffing PUP.) Might be nice if the accuracy check on Counter was removed or lowered to reasonable-in-tanking-gear levels at least.
    I like the idea to shift focus to becoming a viable tank. Maybe rework counterstance or footwork to be a low cooldown, high duration tanking stance, with crusade's enmity boost and a change to the counter acc check while on. I doubt they would put in the work required to adjust the rest of the job though. Would require changes to give monk hate tools beyond what a subjob would offer etc. If they're not keen on putting in the work to adjust WSs, I think it might be too much to hope for.
    (0)

  7. #17
    Player Shiyo's Avatar
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    Jun 2011
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    705
    Character
    Kitori
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 99
    You don't like monk, we get it. Monk isn't bad, you think it's bad. Nothing anyone says is going to change your mind. You're just going to say it sucks and is the worst job ever, despite the fact that
    people are clearing content on monk all the time, safely, quickly and consistently. Sorry you don't like it, but it's not going to be buffed because it'll break the game if it becomes even stronger.

    Carry on.

    You know a job that REALLY needs to be buffed as it has NO unique niches or special situational uses? Dancer. It's basically a dead job.

    @ Nyariko

    I too would've love monk to become a tank. It's really fun when you play it that way, and pretty meh to play as a DD.
    (1)
    Last edited by Shiyo; 04-30-2018 at 06:58 AM.

  8. #18
    Player Halley's Avatar
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    Aug 2017
    Posts
    232
    Character
    Zeiry
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    Dancer is already in a fantastic spot if you know how to play it properly.

    Monk does need some upwards adjusting, just not as much as people make it seem like. Just fix Shijin and Smite, give some form of offhand/make fencer work for mnk and maybe some more smite trait
    (1)

  9. #19
    Player Shiyo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    705
    Character
    Kitori
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 99
    There's no playing properly, it does fine damage it just has nothing it brings that makes you want to bring it over any other job. So it's like not really a good job.

    It's not bad, it just doesn't..excel at anything.

    Shijin should actually do damage, I agree with that.

    Also asuran fists should do damage, and monk should get a distortion WS, but I think every weapon type should have every level2 sc property now.
    (0)
    Last edited by Shiyo; 04-30-2018 at 08:53 AM.

  10. #20
    Player Khelek's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    16
    Character
    Khelek
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    DRK Lv 99
    If you're going to be immature and resort to baseless, aggressive accusations whenever your claims are disputed, I suggest you leave. Make your own thread where people can shout their opinions at eachother all day and be as toxic as they want.
    (0)

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