119 Hecteyes and Hippogryph jug pet

[Selindrile]

Nyarlko I'd enjoy you showing you what I mean by BLM is pretty much invincible.... that's the reason to cleave on it.

Mewing Lullaby is also 100% accuracy (except apparently a couple of mobs made specifically to counter it) and is a full reset regardless of it's TP, isn't as squishy as underlevelled Fargan and yeah lower timer.

I like your idea, actually the abillity to change pets more freely would be nice, but I still think our biggest issue is being hamstrung by distance, though, and a KI change could be interesting too, I'm not opposed to new pets, but I just think we have bigger issues, player survivability, JA timers, chained to non-ilevel gear, being unable to be effective on both master and pet as melee (due to buff and gear incompatability) are real killers here.

[Nyarlko]

Nyarlko I'd enjoy you showing you what I mean by BLM is pretty much invincible.... that's the reason to cleave on it.

Mewing Lullaby is also 100% accuracy (except apparently a couple of mobs made specifically to counter it) and is a full reset regardless of it's TP, isn't as squishy as underlevelled Fargan and yeah lower timer.

I like your idea, actually the abillity to change pets more freely would be nice, but I still think our biggest issue is being hamstrung by distance, though, and a KI change could be interesting too, I'm not opposed to new pets, but I just think we have bigger issues, player survivability, JA timers, chained to non-ilevel gear, being unable to be effective on both master and pet as melee (due to buff and gear incompatability) are real killers here.

I am fully aware of the power of Mana Wall, and the ridiculousness of extended MW via temps. lol The thing is that BLU can get close to the same toughness as BLM up til around Reisenjima, is not hamstrung by the MTD- effect, and has very hard hitting aoe nukes that have crowd control built right into them.

Wasn't suggesting a change to Killer Instinct. Was only pointing out that being able to quickswap pets like DRG/PUP can would allow us to take full advantage of KI every time that natural/animal Killer Effects are applicable.

[Selindrile]

Blu can't really get anywhere near the same toughness as blm (though yeah this is irrelevant in most camps, they're still more efficient than Bst in most places), and MTD is a nonissue as you reduce so much damage you don't lose any more MP than your natural refresh... which opens up new camps, was the entire point, it opens up all of Reisen as an efficient solo cleave spot, but if you're aware of such why did you mention Blm as being squishy, as with that setup, as you know, they are the farthest thing in the game from squishy, and have no need to crowd control, can just keep blasting while everything dies and not losing any MP, considering their nukes are free as well, though MP isn't a big issue on Blu either, admittedly, the only real issue with Blm is needing to keep refreshing manawall, which is why I too would usually use Blu, but when there's a lot of competition, Blm is a great alternative.

And well without a KI change, you'd still only be able to keep it up on 1 enemy type for 3 minutes out of every 5, though sure it would be an improvement though, I thought you were asking for changes beyond that and I was thinking that could be an interesting way to add utility to Bst.

[Xilk]

are you you cleaving gain xp then? how quickly do you fill up sparks?

Bst is about 25 min

edit:
converting sparks and getting back can take 5~10 min depending on how efficient you are w/ your inventory etc.

I went back to read details and I don't think we are comparing apples to apples when it comes to what we are thinking about when we cleave.

I have master blu and I have cleaved with it alot. also, my gear is similar to Nyarlko's on blu. I don't have mastered blm, though so tell me if blm can cleave at the pace I'm going to describe.

And as nice as manawall is, correct me if I'm wrong, its only up 50% of the time. Which is really awesome, but pretty sure the cleaving runs are longer.

I think the comparison of how quickly you fill sparks from less than 1k to 99k is the best way to compare, but I want to tell you a bit more about bst cleaving techniques, because I don't think you are doing the same thing on bst that I am.

I have not gone to Escha Zi'tah or Ru'aun for cleaving since I was under geared and under leveled. When I talk about bst cleaving its always Reisenjima. If you can't manage in Reisenjima, then you are not really geared for it, whether its blu, blm, bst or whatever. There is better xp/kill in Reisenjima, and bst can do it there no problem. So if you can't do it there, you are not in the same league.

Also, I'm not using Bertha. 2 charge ready moves are woefully inefficient for cleaving. Best bst pet for cleaving is HeadbreakerKen. Cursed Sphere is the most potent, 1-charge AoE ready move; and its magic damage. I'm doing 10k every 10s. I have a little room for improvement in my set. I know a few bst doing over 11k without any additional buffs. for the last 5 minutes (or ~25k sparks) using run wild boosts that damage up to around 12.5k ~13k damage per cursed sphere. IF there is a Corsair around for Puppet's Roll, its all the better, and you are around 15k. You are 1-shotting alot of targets at that point, which is convenient if not a HUGE boost in sparks/hour.

on Bst you are running a constant loop. fight > Cursed Sphere > Heel
Each blast can have from 3 ~10 mobs in it. Its not worth the time to gather larger groups. a Good Bst kills them as they gather them. bst does not need to stop to cast. while Ken is using cursed Sphere, master is already running to next cluster of targets.

You then pull anything not dead in the first blast, to be finished off as you do the next blast on a new group. Its easy to chain 100~150 hardly trying. A really good player chain as long as they are willing to keep it up. I think the highest I've seen was 500. Those are for Power Leveling, not for spark farming. Sparks farming you cap sparks before chain 200 iirc.

it takes roughly 90 min to Power level a job from lvl 1 to 99 with a good, solo BST cleaving. during xp campaign it takes 20 minutes. And a single bst can PL 5 or 6 others at once at this rate.

Can blu or blm really compete with this?

[Selindrile]

Assuming similar camps and competition, Blu should be faster, notably so. Higher level camps aren't as efficient for gain exp which is where BLM shines, so it's not really competitive in this scenario, too much wasted exp overflow when zitah has more packed/efficient camps, so no point to using Blm for gain exp as you're better off targetting Escha Zitah for that.

Actual time to fill varies mostly on how much competition you have in zone/members in your party, but yeah, Blu moves faster which means they pull faster (flee boots), takes less damage, can heal itself instead of having to slowmode engage for trusts or someone else to cure/give them regen, and kills faster, (they both 1-shot anything in Zitah which is most efficient for Gain Exp without buffs), Blu has the larger aoe which means less time waiting for the group to clump, and less waiting if you fail to get the whole group in the first AoE) and no pet-pathing issues to deal with either.

When I was back on Fenrir, I can't say as I timed it but it was extremely fast, though on Asura, hahahaha, no way, zitah is a frigging warzone during gain exp and you're fighting tooth and nail for every pool because there's just people everywhere pulling as they pop.

But, to restate my original point, Bst is actually "close enough" in terms of cleaving, it may not be top dog in most scenarios, but it's fine.... in almost all other areas of the game, this is not at all the case.

[Xilk]

sorry for timing Selindrile, I updated my post. alot more information, because both you and Nyarlko seem to think that bst is stuck in Zi'tah with BouncingBertha when bst has always been in the higher level camp with HeadbreakerKen in my book.
assume no competition for maximum performance, because there is much less competition in Reisenjima, and there are several viable camps as well.


all I can think while reading that about zi'tah is that bst on other servers are 'doin it wrong'.

Edit:

another note, Bertha has very powerful physical AoE, but the range is kinda pathetic at 6'

Cursed Sphere and fireball are probably the same AoE range as most blue mage aoe spells.

[Selindrile]

Nah, Warlike Patrick's Fireball works fine too in Reisen as well, I can get it to about 11k unbuffed on most targets actually, but yes, 90 minutes from 1-99 is absolutely achievable, I've done it all all 3 jobs actually, and timed exactly that, which one is fastest overall I'd be hard pressed to say, but each excel in different camps, and yeah, that's how I pull on Bst with Patrick as well, but that's because of the difficulty of pulling large amounts of mobs there as Bst, it would certainly be faster if you could simply clump all the mobs up and slaughter them at once, less time spent wasted on all those micro-stops using JAs, this is a way you've mitigated a downside, not an upside of cleaving on Bst, and that should be obvious, the upside of Bst cleaving, for me is it's pretty autopilot, Blu and Blm require a lot more attention-paying, but generally have better performance.

[Xilk]

fireball does work, but its weaker than cursed sphere.

If solo blu or blm can PL in 90 min that puts them about even, like you say.

All these jobs can kill large groups very quickly and efficiently.

Next it would become a comparison of larger, slower pulls, or the constant small group pace bst maintains.
AND comparing any upkeep needed for healing, mp recovery, etc

when on blu or blm, you buff up your defenses, run and link a big crowd, then when big enough, or your taking enough damage you need to stop and sleep them, then either nuke them down, or recover hp and some defenses (ss, occultation, cure) then you nuke them down. then you may or may not need to buff again fore the next pull. It was about 50/50 for me needing to buff up again on blu between pulling and nuking. It depends on how big of a pull you are aiming for. How many mobs are you getting in those pulls? 15 ~ 30 I would think. How much time between those pulls? I think you are taking at least 30s per pull solo, and at least 30s rebuffing. 60s where a bst is killing at 3~10 every 10 seconds. So on the very low side its 18 kills from the bst, but average in the middle its more likely 6.5 kills per 10s, and 36 kills in the minute, average to the average of 22.5 kills on the blu or blm. plus bst keeps the chain longer.

I'm just guessing on these numbers based off experience. As you said, the skill of pulling and competition make a huge difference in comparison, but I think he bst pulling method can kill more efficiently and maintain the chain better. Its probably moot at this point. it will come down to how efficient and skilled the players are at the individual jobs.

If you have support, then the equation changes significantly, but it changes for all the jobs the same way.

[Nyarlko]

And well without a KI change, you'd still only be able to keep it up on 1 enemy type for 3 minutes out of every 5, though sure it would be an improvement though, I thought you were asking for changes beyond that and I was thinking that could be an interesting way to add utility to Bst.

Merits add more time. ~4min out of 5 is actually pretty solid, and I've long since ditched my regen merits in favor of KI merits. (Have Shukuyu Sune-Ate, so my Reward setup gets more out of not worrying about Beast Healer merits.) Doing the same thing with BLM, temps can push that KI up to 8min straight, and unlike BLM, KI buffs all party members in range. DT- portion acts as DTII and goes over existing caps (if capped at DT-50% to begin with, then vs NM KI pushes you up to DT-55%, and non-NM would be DT-57.5%) and DD+ seems to be a hard percent added at the end in my eyeballed experience, though I've never done any actual testing.

[Selindrile]

Regardless, even in my original posts, I was calling Bst close enough to be competitive in terms of cleaving, this really has all side-tracked from my whole point, which was that outside of cleaving, Bst is not in a reasonable position for other content, and thus a more systemic change is called for, to fix the more worrisome problems Bst has that I mentioned.