Looking For More Players On Cerberus.

[Shiyo]

If you want to keep your backwater server going, help every stranger who shouts for help. If you aren't helping with pickup groups then you're doing your part to push them off the server or out of the game entirely. Even if you don't need what they're shouting for.
Not addressing OP directly, just saying in general it's the healthiest thing you can do.

I'm going to have to disagree with this for a few reasons.

The people shouting on Valefor are nearly always looking to be CARRIED, not helped. A great example is a few days ago a BLM was shouting for reisen NMs while having 3 pieces of sparks, non-ambu cape and a +2 int neck. There is no way that person can contribute to the bosses death on that job - yet they still shouted AND fought the boss on that job. They were literally carried through content they shouldn't be allowed to do on their BLM. If they wanted to ask for help, they'd play a support or a job that can actually CONTRIBUTE to the mob dying and not have floored magical accuracy.

I examined them today and they now have merlinc hood from the NM they were shouting for with 2 pieces of sparks gear instead of 3. Since they were carried, they now think it's ok to ask to get carried more. They will keep expecting it, and instead of leveling a support like geo or brd or even WHM like a good player would do before they gear their dds/nukers, they instead just show up contributing nothing thinking it's ok because they were carried once, and now that's their expectation.

Helping anyone asking for help, while an extremely nice thing to do, doesn't actually build better players or make things better. That person will eventually reach a wall where they can't be carried, get frustrated because so used to being carried, then either quit or transfer to asura and get carried more. They also skip so much character progression that they'll run out of things to do and quit much earlier, meaning helping that person did nothing good for the server or your community.

Players should be taught, not given free things.

[Kylos]

Between 2004-2009 I did nothing but help others. Of course, I leveled my DRK up to 75 and beyond when Abyssea came out, but in the early days I had a mentor who became a legendary figure by fathering newer players. My social linkshell revolved around the values he bestowed, and I still have the "Story Of Seiya" (we loved the guy that much we needed to pass his story on) somewhere which goes into intricate details of what he did for us.

So for someone to advise me to .. "help others so they can help you", is like trying to tell an ice-cream man how to make ice-cream. It feels a little insulting but I understand that most players won't know our history and I wouldn't expect them too. So below is a brief history of what my father Quilly & I have done in this game.

My father and I led two sister social linkshells on Hades which shared players (before it was merged), where we helped anyone and everyone without asking for anything. We did this for many years .. and got much respect from those players who grew up. But when we wanted to do something serious, rarely could we find anyone to help us. When we did find help it was usually one of those players we'd helped out when they were newbies. But it was a little concerning .. seeing those newbies we'd helped be so much better off than us. They'd joined endgame groups and achieved great things while we sat in Bastok waiting for newbies with question marks above their heads.

Times changed and players changed with it. They'd become self-efficient thanks to amazing guides and wikis. I managed to find a few new players and tried to help them .. but I'd spend days helping some of them to find out they'd just up and left the game without warning. This happened several times before I grew frustrated helping strangers. It felt like .. 1) the newbies who grew up were too busy with their endgame LS to help us in return, and 2) the new players we found didn't respect us enough to simply show gratitude after we carried them through something. My dad & I went through several players not asking for anything .. and they came to expect us to hold their hand through it all instead of trying to be self-efficient.

So we had to change philosophy (more me than my dad). Instead of helping new players, I wanted to get in to endgame events and help players achieve their goals. I joined a couple of dynamis LS and learned the ropes before I and a few others started our own. For a couple of years we destroyed dynamis twice each week and had some of the most fun experiences I've ever had. With the same name as my current (Reality), we defeated Dynamis Lord several times and even tried Diabolos in Tavnazia. I still remember when we got our first RDM Hat, BLM Hat, and THF Hands in Xarc .. as well as our first city clears and Valkurm Dunes win. We made a group which was so efficient I wish I could go back in time and play in that group again; it was the greatest linkshell I've ever had the pleasure to run with. But after a while it became too much of the same .. everyone had everything, and I decided to leave the game for a number of months shortly after Abyssea came out as I had no motivation. To be honest, I was going through a rough time in my life and FFXI wasn't doing it for me.

So it was around 2012ish that I just decided .. screw this, I'm coming back and I'm going to wreck Abyssea. We tried to help people .. but the game had changed so much. I thought about joining an endgame LS but couldn't find anything which suited us and our times. If someone was polite enough .. I'd find some time to help them out, otherwise I was more interested in becoming strong and accomplished. I was tired of being known as the gimpy DRK who couldn't hit a thing. I was tired of looking at other players with their amazing equipment and feeling like I couldn't do the same. So from 2012-2015 Quilly & I focused on making relics and getting better equipment in Adoulin. I joined an endgame LS to get us clears for Delve .. but they couldn't help us so I ended up clearing them in 18-man PUGs which I set up and lead. I had a couple of friends who were excellent with strategy and were seriously geared, so I tagged along in some of their events to learn the content. It felt great being able to join events, instead of having to set up and lead everything myself. I was obviously very grateful for their help, and the knowledge I gained remains with me.

A couple of years ago, I noticed someone trying to merc Vagary clears for stupid amounts of gil .. which irked me so badly I made a linkshell (VagarySpeaking) completely dedicated to running Vagary once a week. I did this because I knew there were so many players who were skilled enough, but just didn't have a group or knowledge of the event. Slowly, but surely, over a few months, VagarySpeaking recruited members and learned the content. I got battle strategy advice from leaders of other linkshells (thanks Avalon) and players on ffxiah.com as I wanted to ensure we could get clears for people. I was so thankful for the tips, as we had setbacks .. but after further practice we were able to figure it out. Just like Reality, VS became strong enough to clear 1-5 easily in a couple of hours each week. I was happy to help people get their clears instead of being forced to pay extortionate amounts. I was in line to get a Tartarus Platemail .. and the LS really wanted to see me get it. I never did, as Plouton is the tightest guy around, but we did manage to get nine other players the platemail via the Odyssean Passage. It was never the main goal to get me a platemail .. it was to help players get clears. I still don't have platemail, but nine others do, including Quilly, so I'm happy in the knowledge. But just like the old Reality, Vagary became an event we didn't really need anymore. It became a force of habit, and there weren't many who needed clears anymore.

As the server got smaller .. and smaller, I found out one day that the linkshells main PLD (the guy who thought of the LS name) had moved to Asura with his friends. He apologized for leaving us, but also thanked us for all the good times. It was the best time to disband VS and turn it in to something which could grow beyond it. I wanted to help players grow by doing events like Geas Fete and Omen, so It was the best time to bring Reality back from the dead, and luckily a few loyal VS members signed up right away. And just like all the other linkshells I've lead or co-lead, we did our best to get players and help them achieve their goals. I still maintain Seiya's values, except I don't waste my time on players who want to be carried. I don't have have my group merc things for people .. because I'd rather see them gear a job and join us like an efficient player so they don't have to pay us. As for helping people in random yells .. I feel like the game is easy enough for players to get to a certain level where they can join our events and not feel like they are being handheld.

I still do help people in Quillys social LS if they are polite and seem like the kind of person who would join us for the big stuff when they get stronger. I'm always giving random bits of advice, as you rarely see anyone doing that these days. I'm not against someone sending me a /tell asking for tips for a particular fight. If I'm not doing anything .. I might go help them. Otherwise I'll give them the knowledge to be self-efficient, and encourage them to find others who need the same thing so they can grow up in the game together.

At the end of the day .. I have, and continue to do everything in my power to help others. I can't hold their hands .. I can't carry them, but I can give them the knowledge and pass them on to other players in a similar situation. I'll always give someone a chance, and often enough I don't check people if I invite them to ambuscade for example. Sometimes we end up with a player who isn't ready for the content, so I politely tell them they need to gear up more before they can join us again. I don't mean to insult them, but it's unfair to the rest of the group if we have to carry someone. And sometimes this message spurs them on to improve and eventually join us again .. or they annoyingly look for another group willing to carry them.

Some players are looking for an easy ride, and I think that's only cheating themselves out of playing this game as the developers intend. I am always teaching .. and I am always learning. I really can't do anymore at this point, I have two jobs .. a daughter, and many other games waiting to be played. I dedicate my time to helping those who I can trust to play this game and enjoy it, while we all reap the rewards without giving pearlsacks or myself special treatment. Equality is something I've always believed in, when it comes to a linkshell group. We pretty much give whatever drops to whoever needs it the most, and I think it's great we can all trust each other that much. I think it's great that even on this "backwater server", there's groups of players having a blast and doing it like a family unit.

[detlef]

I'm going to have to disagree with this for a few reasons.

The people shouting on Valefor are nearly always looking to be CARRIED, not helped. A great example is a few days ago a BLM was shouting for reisen NMs while having 3 pieces of sparks, non-ambu cape and a +2 int neck. There is no way that person can contribute to the bosses death on that job - yet they still shouted AND fought the boss on that job. They were literally carried through content they shouldn't be allowed to do on their BLM. If they wanted to ask for help, they'd play a support or a job that can actually CONTRIBUTE to the mob dying and not have floored magical accuracy.

I examined them today and they now have merlinc hood from the NM they were shouting for with 2 pieces of sparks gear instead of 3. Since they were carried, they now think it's ok to ask to get carried more. They will keep expecting it, and instead of leveling a support like geo or brd or even WHM like a good player would do before they gear their dds/nukers, they instead just show up contributing nothing thinking it's ok because they were carried once, and now that's their expectation.

Helping anyone asking for help, while an extremely nice thing to do, doesn't actually build better players or make things better. That person will eventually reach a wall where they can't be carried, get frustrated because so used to being carried, then either quit or transfer to asura and get carried more. They also skip so much character progression that they'll run out of things to do and quit much earlier, meaning helping that person did nothing good for the server or your community.

Players should be taught, not given free things.

I've had this debate many, many times. There's a fine line towards between helping and carrying. I think you make a good point, that player I was helping probably didn't contribute much. Maybe didn't know much about the fight. I probably did too much for them. But I don't think that's a bad thing.

That player at least identified what gear he would need. You can argue that a new player should cut his teeth with ilvl JSE or Skirmish or Delve. Or farm Ru'aun abjurations and then finally move on to Merlinic gear from Reisenjima T1s. But I don' think it's reasonable for someone to be able to get help at every step like that. I think it's much more reasonable to treat obtaining Merlinic gear as the baseline and then let the player demonstrate competence with his dedication to suitable augments (competence in gearing himself I mean).

Where I'm going with this is that I view this instance as helping someone get to a point where they can potentially prove himself in a group setting. Without Merlinic or Amalric gear he's going to have a rough go of it in any situation. So it's just a question of whether reaching that gear baseline is the endgame in and of itself or if it's a doorway to bigger things.

Question, what strategy would you advise for this player? If shouting for the Morbol NM, getting 2 helpers, and failing miserably (before I helped) didn't work, what would you suggest he do instead? Not putting you on the spot, just wondering what you think that person should have done to progress without being carried?

[Shiyo]

I intentionally didn't mention anything about you helping the person and wanted it to be left anonymous.

A good solution is that you tell them person "I'd help you if you had proper gear to ACTUALLY hit the mob or you leveled a support/whm to heal or buff me. However, right now, your gear is far too weak to contribute to killing this boss and you should work on that, or as I said, work on leveling a job that can do harder content with MUCH less gear requirements".

That guy basically learned nothing from getting carried, probably doesn't know proper gear sets, was using the wrong sub on BLM, and probably doesn't even have any JP(Which MASSIVELY increases your performance on BLM). He put in zero effort, and got all the reward. That's a very, very, very bad thing to teach some undergeared player, and an exceptionally bad habit for them to get into.

However, if you gave him helpful advice he might've listened. He would've learned something, and perhaps become a better player from it. This is also a great way to find new members for linkshells or people to play with(especially important for small servers like ours and kylos'). You can build good players, but just handing them free stuff doesn't help the problem Kylos and every other small server like his experiences.

[detlef]

What gear should that player realistically shoot for if we're saying that Reisen gear is too high to shoot for? I think it's a little too restrictive to say do this and then that and then you'll be ready to do Reisen. Like, should I say, sorry you can't come on BLM, you have to have Ru'aun gear at least. Except he'd need the same help for that gear which would have a lower drop rate, be more expensive, and would still be obsoleted by Reisen gear. I mean, no matter what the dude's not gonna be able to gear his BLM without a pretty substantial amount of help.

Now with all that said, I think you've made some good points. I'm pretty sure I didn't adequately explain the whys and hows of every NM we fought and I couldn't even tell you if he was hitting his stuns or his MBs. That's something I'll try to remember for next time.

[Hawklaser]

On this whole help/not help front, I just want to give some input from the side that may need help at times. As with having taken breaks a couple of times, I have been in an odd boat and needed help a time or two.

I never wanted to be carried and did everything I could to climb the gear ladder normally and contribute to the events I needed gear from. The problem comes in when you hit the points where you need extra players to clear content to get the gear you need. You can't expect everyone to love and level every job, I personally can't stand blm and it will never go above 50 for SJs. So you can't expect everyone to have a job that can solo harder content with trusts when barely geared. This applies to all steps of gearing up beyond sparks, as not all jobs can reliably clear the content leading up to Ambuscade/Reisenjima with trusts without being well geared to begin with. So sometimes those needing help end up in a Catch 22, can't get the gear they need to do harder things solo, and can't get help for getting the gear as they are expected to be able to solo that content. And when one hits one of these spots, about all they can fall back on is doing long grinds for REM or JP which can take a couple month's and hope its enough to push them over the edge to clear things if it doesn't cause them to put the game down first. When I came back pre-adoulin, I couldn't get help to get the atma/gear needed to get to the point could start gearing up by myself and took another break, this time when came back I did get help to get up and going again and been much more enjoyable.

Either way, helping vs carrying someone is always a fine line. In this stage of the game, I'd almost say normal quality ambuscade set and possibly a 119 unity weapon is a good starting point to get people to, and then see what they do with that before jumping them to reisenjima gear if its someone you don't know and are not gearing them up for LS events. As that should let them start working through the upgrade chain themselves for a bit so they can figure things out, as that would let them get to a point can contribute to lower difficulty ambuscades, and possibly start soloing them if needed to start getting the +1's or +2's, which would open more things up.

[Kylos]

Ok so here's where I outline what someone can do to at least give the impression they are gearing up progressively. It's fine to ask for help on stuff, but if you show up with no AF, Relics, or Empys in sight and expect to get Merlinic Hood (I had to go through many hoops for my first Reisen gear), I'm going to assume you're punching above your weight.

Making your way to 99: What anyone should do the second (or on the way) they reach level 99 is quest all the artifacts (even if you know they will end up stored on slips later). This is a vital step in being able to do higher content, and they're far easily reforged than the relics or empyreans. You can solo farm sparks in a number of ways (I have a "lazy" tip for those who don't have a lot of time to wait on Gain EXP, but it's more for a returning player who did much of Voidwatch), and you really shouldn't be using sparks for gil at this point. Save up all the chapters you can find, and use places like Dynamis and Salvage to earn you easy gil.

Reaching for ilvl: Next up you'll likely be buying sparks equipment, as well as making your way to Adoulin. The peacekeeper's coaltion has good sets of equipment for entry level, and you can buy these with bayld. You'll have to do some work though .. do what everyone else did when they got to Adoulin: 1) Do lots of easy quests, 2) complete different quests from coaltions, don't just stick to the colo/lair reive assignments .. try others too. A mix of AF, sparks, and bayld gear is going to be enough to do early Adoulin content.

Adoulin: I think many players underestimate the power of the expansion and want to bypass it by jumping straight to Reisenjima. You can't! Not unless someone is nice enough to hold your hand through it. You really need to get the Home Point Crystals to Wildskeeper Reives so you can pick up easy equipment when there's a WKR campaign on. But don't wait for someone to start one! Do a /yell and ask players if they would kindly come to Ceizak so you can try this content. Don't just sit there all day hoping and praying someone comes along.

Dynamis/Abyssea - With some kind of ilvl equipment, Thief w/ trusts will destroy Dynamis and Abyssea. It won't be difficult to find relics with some Treasure Hunter, then you can start working on reforging them. As for Abyssea, you really really want the Abyssea campaign to get hold of atmas and other cool things which will make your life easier. **If you can't do this I would recommend asking around, doing yells, look to see if anyone needs the good atmas from Abyssea** -- I usually use Razed Ruins/Gnarled Horn/Voracious Violet .. and these days you have trusts too, so NMs are not scary in the slightest unless you aim for the hardest ones in the last three zones right away. Also atmacites are very important in Abyssea .. gotta collect as many as you can as they are permanent buffs. As for the Empyreans .. you won't be able to reforge them easily at this point, but at least they are ready and waiting.

Practice Solo In Arrapago II - You can get a good gauge (this is only for jobs like THF, BLU, DNC etc) of how strong you are by soloing this Salvage for gil. If you can't kill the Armored Chariot in under 3 minutes, you need more practice, better equipment, or a mix of both. The bosses test how strong you are against magical attacks. If you die too much on these, you may need to come back later when you have better ilvl equipment.

Skirmish For Damage Taken - - It's crazy when players completely disregard defensive equipment. Of course there are way more options for PDT/MDT at higher ilvls, but most of 'em you won't get til much later and you need something defensive. If you're a THF for example .. you'll be wanting the full Iuitl set augmented. Don't worry too much about getting them +1 at this point .. although the +1s will certainly last longer. The problem with getting +1s is you have to do Outer Ra'Kaznar skirmish which is not easy to get too, and not many players will want to do it. Black Mage is simply amazing in Ra Kaznar skirmish .. so if you're playing that job, this skirmish is a wonderful test of your solo ability.

And Beyond - Now it's getting to the point where you need to do some serious group content. Not only should you get Rhapsodies of Vana'Diel completed (there's always people willing to help out on the awkward fights in that story), you should try (or ask very, very nicely) to beat any high tier mission battlefield on Normal. This will open up Oboro weapons which can be expensive .. but will give you a weapon suitable of harder content. From there you can think about doing Sinister Reign, Vagary, Unity, Incursion, Delve, and so much more that will get you closer to being acceptable for Escha/Reisenjima.

This sounds like a lot work, but players have to remember that much of us worked through all of this over several years, bit by bit, and we couldn't shortcut our way through it by getting a Merlinic Hood because it didn't exist. Think about where you are, and see if you can find a way to solo it with trusts. Better yet .. and I always encourage this, find other players in a similar boat. It's way easier to duo/trio the earlier content as you can mix and match jobs and play to each other's strengths, while shying away from weaknesses. This effort goes a long way in showing endgame event LS leaders you have the will, and the patience, to play this game in the way the developers intend. By asking for shortcuts .. sure, you can start augmenting your Merl Hood pretty early, but you could never kill that NM again by yourself to get two more.

I have to admit though, I got a bunch of my Reisenjima equipment from the special Domain Invasion event which dropped all that stuff like rain. Not all of it though .. my first pieces came from my event LS figuring out how to kill T1s as a group. We didn't jump straight to it though, we killed Zitah NMs up to T3, and Sky NMs up to T2s before we even thought about Reisenjima. Vorseals are everything .. gotta catch 'em all. And that right there .. is just a brief rundown of what you can do to show you're serious and don't want handouts. Show you can be self-efficient .. be a cool dude/dudette, and better geared players will feel more inclined to spend their spare time helping you.

[Shiyo]

What gear should that player realistically shoot for if we're saying that Reisen gear is too high to shoot for? I think it's a little too restrictive to say do this and then that and then you'll be ready to do Reisen. Like, should I say, sorry you can't come on BLM, you have to have Ru'aun gear at least. Except he'd need the same help for that gear which would have a lower drop rate, be more expensive, and would still be obsoleted by Reisen gear. I mean, no matter what the dude's not gonna be able to gear his BLM without a pretty substantial amount of help.

Now with all that said, I think you've made some good points. I'm pretty sure I didn't adequately explain the whys and hows of every NM we fought and I couldn't even tell you if he was hitting his stuns or his MBs. That's something I'll try to remember for next time.

Ambuscade is for starter gear. Mog kupons give you free skirmish/alluvion skirmish gear from the tutorial, however ambu can be solod on e-n or at least duod on N consistently to get full NQ jhakri(which would take like, 3 days). Amalaric gear is pretty bad and expensive, psycloth gear is pretty awful, ruan is not the starter gear. You want jhakri, which has tons of acc(all ambu gear does) for a REASON and is F R E E. The reason being it's STARTER GEAR meant to let you BE ABLE TO CONTRIBUTE ON ANY JOB. Sparks gear is not that, sparks gear is "I just dinged 99 and haven't done anything". Reisen is the end of the gearing spectrum.

Carrying someone from sparks to reisen gear is something you would do for a mule, not some new player. Also carrying someone through ambu to a full NQ set if a MUCH more efficient and better use of time than reisen NM's. They can also generally hit ambu mobs even in sparks gear if you do it on lower difficulties, meaning they'll learn how to play their job, and you will get rewarded for your efforts with RMEA mats or capes etc. Ambu is literally designed for veterans to help new/returning players and reward everyone equally. It's fantastic.

If people can't even get themselves STARTER gear(Ambu), how do you even know they have their emp weapon skills? Or their trial weapon skills(if a DD), or even their merit WS? Or hell, even merit abilities? Doubt the dude even had mykr, he was basically asking to be carried.

Rule of thumb: Don't help anyone in content if they're coming a job that has FLOORED ACCURACY for said content.

[detlef]

Fair enough. I guess we have different views on what's easy to get and what the minimum baseline for gear is. In your eyes, Ambuscade gear is starting gear. But in my view Reisen gear is the starting gear. So in my view, I was helping said player get to a gear level where he might be able to contribute.

It sounds like a lot of people think you have to cut your teeth doing lower level content for gear that will be replaced very quickly but I don't know about that. Difference of opinion I guess.

[Kylos]

I'm also inclined to say Reisenjima equip is not starter gear for the majority. Also cutting your teeth doing lower level content gives the player experience and knowledge of new monsters and battle systems. It's not just about finding stopgap gear, it's about learning how all these events work so you can adapt to new monsters and battle systems later. It's also about exploration, and opening up the game so when a leader asks "you got the warp to here?", you can say "sure, I did Adoulin missions and got the HP crystal before I did Hades". Obviously that's just one example .. I can't begin to count how many times a player has turned to me and said they don't have something they really should, so our group has to wait half an hour for them to travel across the world to get that one warp point so they can come back later.

On the other hand though .. if this person is a friend and you know this person was an exceptional player before they left the game, you could go and shortcut 'em right through and bestow knowledge on to them. But it really depends on the person .. like, for example: I have a friend named Overlordandy and he left the game for a few years. He's pretty much the most efficient player I've ever known (he was the one who taught me how to pull Dynamis back in the day) .. he's stupidly awesome at getting things done with little wasted motion. So I helped him and his wife get some equipment which bypassed a bunch of the earlier content. Once we did that I gave him the gist of where to go from there, and low and behold, he and his wife managed to join my Vagary LS very shortly after, on jobs which were certainly geared enough. Now they are part of JP LS, have multiple Aeonics, and have done Master Trials.

In other words .. "starter" gear depends on how good the player is, and what their relationship is to you. Merlinic is starter gear for the absolute best returning IF they are your good friends .. otherwise a stranger is likely going to need Ambuscade and everything else to convince others they can be trusted to invite.