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Thread: Cure V

  1. #11
    Player Seriha's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Character
    Kalsena
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    WHM also has other perks going for it like gear that returns MP based on amount cured. In the end, that job is where it should be, and needed to be in that dark era where RDMs were the preferred healer, bar none.

    That said, whether or not one wants to avoid debate, I personally have no interest in tugging RDM back toward that time. I hate the Jack of All Trades moniker. MMOers don't want Jacks. They want specialists. Being a Jack means you're not a specialist, which means people aren't gonna want you for anything. Simply giving RDMs Cure V isn't going to make us preferred to WHMs, but at the same time, going down that well means skewing the Jack perspective toward the WHM slant. Again, I don't want to go back to that.

    Since people want specialists, RDM needs to find that. My stance has been that it should be enfeebling, but we've got the problem going on where RDM doesn't really have any unique enfeebles paired with the difficulty of landing them. That's a problem that needs to be rectified, but not just exclusively through magic. Yeah, I care about RDM's martial aspects, too.

    Still, if we really want to run with the Jack angle, the right sub and gear should make us capable as a nuker, healer, or physical attacker without needing thousands of JP just to even be put on the table. Maybe we need better healing gear? Perhaps. I wouldn't say nuking is in a bad state, but if anything, accuracy on harder content would be the concern. Melee? Yeah, gear options are better nowadays, but more can be done to make us more tempting for the role. If SE wants to up their game on enfeebling, of course, disregard the rest of this. Until then, if RDM's white magic arsenal is improved, other facets need it just as much, if not more.
    (3)

  2. #12
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    Feb 2012
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    Hmm well said Seriha and some good points. While I'm not in particular happy with RDM's position in today's game compared to back in the days I'm going to have to agree with you. Especially with the specialist part and how the community desires just that over the latter. That is just a reality we'll have to accept isn't it. Even if RDM did get a Cure V spell I highly doubt it would be used by the community at all and forgotten as fast as it was given to players. At the end of the day people want a Whm and only the most simple of content with folks accept anything other than just that. Personally I'd love some more diversity in the game. Like War tanking more often and RDM main healing here and there. It's not that that can't happen. As a matter of fact a skilled player wearing the perfect gear could do just that, but yeah. Like you said specialists are what's preferred. I think the communities mindset is more to blame than SE on that subject imo as I've approached content with friends and conquered it with set ups ppl would laugh at.
    (0)

  3. #13
    Player Jakuk's Avatar
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    Jul 2016
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    Character
    Jakuk
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    Phoenix
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    PUP Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Songen View Post
    red mage is a jack of all trades, and a master of none. sch doesn't even get cure 5, even with addendum up (And everyone knows addendum makes sch that style of fighting whether dark or light), so why should rdm get it? as a rdm myself, i don't see why its needed

    (This is my opinion)
    RDM has plenty of spells that SCH needs to use Addendum for...

    Dark, Dispel, Sleep II, Elemental Nuke IV, Elemental Nuke V

    Addendum doesn't automatically make SCH better than RDM at that art, only grants them more than they have without.

    -

    I agree with the OP to a point, I don't believe RDM needs Cure V as such, but I do find it dumbfounding that both RDM and SCH's last Curing spells were at level 48 / 55, when the cap is 99 (technically 119)

    -

    I'd also argue for Regen III, and Reraise and Reraise II as it's still sticking to Master of None but actually upping and adding spells that make little sense to not add, Reraise breaks nothing, and with the little Regen gear Regen III will still be vastly weaker than WHM and SCH's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seriha View Post
    WHM also has other perks going for it like gear that returns MP based on amount cured. In the end, that job is where it should be, and needed to be in that dark era where RDMs were the preferred healer, bar none.

    That said, whether or not one wants to avoid debate, I personally have no interest in tugging RDM back toward that time. I hate the Jack of All Trades moniker. MMOers don't want Jacks. They want specialists. Being a Jack means you're not a specialist, which means people aren't gonna want you for anything. Simply giving RDMs Cure V isn't going to make us preferred to WHMs, but at the same time, going down that well means skewing the Jack perspective toward the WHM slant. Again, I don't want to go back to that.

    Since people want specialists, RDM needs to find that. My stance has been that it should be enfeebling, but we've got the problem going on where RDM doesn't really have any unique enfeebles paired with the difficulty of landing them. That's a problem that needs to be rectified, but not just exclusively through magic. Yeah, I care about RDM's martial aspects, too.

    Still, if we really want to run with the Jack angle, the right sub and gear should make us capable as a nuker, healer, or physical attacker without needing thousands of JP just to even be put on the table. Maybe we need better healing gear? Perhaps. I wouldn't say nuking is in a bad state, but if anything, accuracy on harder content would be the concern. Melee? Yeah, gear options are better nowadays, but more can be done to make us more tempting for the role. If SE wants to up their game on enfeebling, of course, disregard the rest of this. Until then, if RDM's white magic arsenal is improved, other facets need it just as much, if not more.
    I disagree, adding Cure V doesn't suddenly do that when RDM has got many different spells to buff other aspects already since Cure IV.

    Tier IV and Tier V nukes,
    Temper and Temper II,
    Haste II, Flurry and Flurry II, Inundation
    Distract I~III, Frazzle I~III, Addle I-II
    Gain spells,
    Refresh II and Refresh III

    Cure V simply makes more sense as it buffs another aspect of RDM.

    RDM is not a specialist and you simply can't make them one without destroying lore, making it one also would not make the job more desirable either. Unless you're asking for OP enfeebles like GEO gets nothing will make an "enfeebler" desired.
    (0)
    Last edited by Jakuk; 06-09-2017 at 12:20 AM.

  4. #14
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    If you want to make RDM relevant in today's game than honestly the solution (and I know ppl will be upset with me for this) ,but the solution would be to get rid of certain spells for other jobs that RDM should be only allowed to use. Example: Haste II.

    I would bet that RDM would always be asked to tag along if Blu or Smn couldn't Haste II. This is coming from someone who plays Blu and SMN 90% of the time to. A minor example but a good one nonetheless. Do I think it should be this way? Well yes and no. It's tough to say. If you want this game to survive then you need to understand that jobs that can fill multiple roles by itself is a mistake. This game was designed for massive cooperative play to overcome obsicles and nothing will change that. Even the best DD like Drk or a Rag wielding War need hasted for maximum damage dealing performance. This keep jobs relevant. When a job like Blu can do nearly all of these things we hit a wall for job relavance. That's just a fact.

    Same can be said for debuffing a enemy. This is supposed to be RDMs specialty yet it's not used or even needed in the ways it should be. I remember back in the day in a good exp party a RDM debuffs on a enemy would make killing a incrediblely tough mob so much more approachable. A powerful slow, paralyze, silence was amazing to have. Now it's just not needed. This is a problem. I know the topic is on Cure V, but I think the issue goes so much deeper than that.
    (0)
    Last edited by Jblauh; 06-09-2017 at 03:21 AM.

  5. #15
    Player Songen's Avatar
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    Dec 2016
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    Windurst
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    Character
    Horu
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Jakuk View Post
    I agree with the OP to a point, I don't believe RDM needs Cure V as such, but I do find it dumbfounding that both RDM and SCH's last Curing spells were at level 48 / 55, when the cap is 99 (technically 119)
    Actually, sch's healing never ended with cure, it continued with regen 5 with some sch's achieving 100-120hp per tick over 3-7min and making AoE at that, they cure better and are more mp efficient than whm using curaga since this buff will work on everyone as long as they received it at the start, after that they can go anywhere and be at any distance and still get cured,
    a 100 per tick regen will yield 300 hp every 9 seconds,
    120 is 360 hp every 9 seconds
    most CP Mana burn partys will invite a well regen sch over a white mage because they can pop a long duration regen (make it AoE) and they don't have to worry about hp, along with said sch being able to nuke as well.
    The tank is continually healed, and everyone who gets hit with a AoE attack don't worry in the least since they will recover it in 6-15 seconds automaticly
    (0)

  6. #16
    Player Songen's Avatar
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    Dec 2016
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    Windurst
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    Character
    Horu
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Jblauh View Post
    If you want to make RDM relevant in today's game than honestly the solution (and I know ppl will be upset with me for this) ,but the solution would be to get rid of certain spells for other jobs that RDM should be only allowed to use. Example: Haste II.

    I would bet that RDM would always be asked to tag along if Blu or Smn couldn't Haste II. This is coming from someone who plays Blu and SMN 90% of the time to. A minor example but a good one nonetheless. Do I think it should be this way? Well yes and no. It's tough to say. If you want this game to survive then you need to understand that jobs that can fill multiple roles by itself is a mistake. This game was designed for massive cooperative play to overcome obsicles and nothing will change that. Even the best DD like Drk or a Rag wielding War need hasted for maximum damage dealing performance. This keep jobs relevant. When a job like Blu can do nearly all of these things we hit a wall for job relavance. That's just a fact.

    Same can be said for debuffing a enemy. This is supposed to be RDMs specialty yet it's not used or even needed in the ways it should be. I remember back in the day in a good exp party a RDM debuffs on a enemy would make killing a incrediblely tough mob so much more approachable. A powerful slow, paralyze, silence was amazing to have. Now it's just not needed. This is a problem. I know the topic is on Cure V, but I think the issue goes so much deeper than that.
    (As a 1200+jp myself replying to this)
    actually, people normally cap haste with a geo and brd, and even then the brd isn't needed since the geo can use indi-haste + normal haste1 spell to either cap or near cap it. removing it from smn or blu simply removes other alternatives.

    What they should be doing is (buffing immunobreak) making rdm's enfeebles close to geo's spells in the sence it will land 95-100% of the time and have a extended duration and higher potency, (and the 5% is those special NMs that will resist 100% even if its a geo casting it),

    Its part of their original bloody manifesto (See below)

    SE's original vision for rdm was (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...cap#post145074)
    -Red Mage
    *Vision
    Support specialists who excel at transforming their allies from mere mortals into demigods with their enhancements, while rendering once-formidable enemies impotent with enfeebling magic.

    We want to see red mages play a more vital role in HNM battles by making enfeebling magic more effective against high-level notorious monsters and their legendary levels of resistance as well as allowing them to better contribute to party member enhancement.

    Example Adjustments
    Adding abilities that reduce to zero the casting time or recast time for the next spell/ninjutsu/song.
    New enfeebling magic spells.
    Pretty much the potency of their enhancing magic that lands on the party should have increased, while enfeeble magic debuffs like anything.
    Honestly, they shoulda made temper/II a party spell and en spells a party spell with the potency of en spells increased while being a rdm main.
    This alone would make dual wielding jobs a bloody machine if done right, if every hit delt 50-100 dmg more, plus you have have temper for higher tp build, you'd find cor's and smn's out of a job in the sence of enhancing on certain levels
    (0)

  7. #17
    Player Jakuk's Avatar
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    Jakuk
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    Phoenix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Songen View Post
    Honestly, they shoulda made temper/II a party spell and en spells a party spell
    HUGE downside to that, they'll drop the activation rate (most likely 5~10 and that'd literally gimp RDM and they'd still not be wanted), so it'd be a huge gimp to RDM itself. I'd love to see stats such as "Enhancing Magic"+ added to gear, and not in a cruel mis-translation way like last time.

    Also the enfeebles are still rubbish, if they wanted enfeebling to be good I don't know why they gave the best enfeebles to GEO.
    (0)
    Last edited by Jakuk; 06-09-2017 at 04:23 PM.

  8. #18
    Player Songen's Avatar
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    Character
    Horu
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    Odin
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    MNK Lv 99
    indeed, party buffs and enfeeble's for rdm are still broken, even with the boost to magic acc its still broken in the sence of how its needed
    (0)

  9. #19
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    802
    Character
    Jeremi
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    No RDM doesn't need Cure V, Cure IV is already vastly superior and RDM gets that.

    If you want a better healing role then what you need it Curaga III and for that to happen SE would need to make it level 49 WHM.

    And before you start whining and crying here are the differences between Cure III / IV and V.

    Cure III = Base cure power 70, Cure power HP hard cap 340
    Cure IV = Base cure power 140, Cure power HP hard cap 640
    Cure V = Base cure power 210, Cure power HP hard cap 780

    Cure I ~ IV cure power is 1 Healing Magic Skill = 1 Cure power, Cure V is 5 Healing Magic Skill = 1 Cure power. This has the effect of making cure power harder to cap on Cure V then on the lower spells. And here is the sucker punch, RDM has trouble hitting Cure power cap on those lower spells because it's natural C- Healing Magic skill. In order for me to hit cure power cap as RDM/WHM I need to wear a lot of Vanya gear and work Cure potency in other slots, where as on WHM it's laughably easy to cap cure power.

    So if SE magically gave RDM Cure V, you all would be extremely disappointed and would still suck at doing your job. Those big numbers you see WHM do are a result of JP, Cure Potency II and so much natural Healing Magic Skill that they can easily pile on MND to raise Cure power for Cure V. Also they naturally go /SCH and get the weather bonus while RDM is forced to choose /SCH weather and LA goodiness or /WHM for Curaga II / Stona / AoE barspells. Needing Cure V is an argument from over five years ago when Cure IV healed for 450 HP and people in Abyssea had 3000 HP. The cure formula adjustments for Cure I ~ IV were targeted at fixing Single Target healing on non-WHM jobs.
    I tend to agree.

    Where Red Mage falls down in the healing department is it's lack of effective AoE healing. Accession has too long of a recast to be dependable and curaga II just doesn't cut it in a lot of fights. So giving Red mage cure V would solve nothing that I can see. This job is already an excellent single target healer.

    Now giving Red Mage the higher tier regens could make a real difference. So would giving them curaga III like you suggested.

    I'm not sure I would support such improvements though despite their usefulness. The Red Mage is not meant to be a primary healing class and should not be able to rival let's say a White mage considering that is suppose to be their specialty.

    Though I used to oppose this - I would settle for making spells like Haste II,Refresh III and Temper area spells so we can function more effectively as a support class.
    (0)
    Last edited by Dale; 06-13-2017 at 06:49 AM.

  10. #20
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Jeremi
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    Quetzalcoatl
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakuk View Post
    HUGE downside to that, they'll drop the activation rate (most likely 5~10 and that'd literally gimp RDM and they'd still not be wanted), so it'd be a huge gimp to RDM itself. I'd love to see stats such as "Enhancing Magic"+ added to gear, and not in a cruel mis-translation way like last time.

    Also the enfeebles are still rubbish, if they wanted enfeebling to be good I don't know why they gave the best enfeebles to GEO.
    Rdm enfeebles are just very situational. On some fights - yeah, they aren't much good. Then on other fights they can be exceptionally powerful.
    (0)

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