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Thread: Cure V

  1. #21
    Player Nyarlko's Avatar
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    Nyarlko
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale View Post
    Rdm enfeebles are just very situational. On some fights - yeah, they aren't much good. Then on other fights they can be exceptionally powerful.
    Outside of gimmick fights like Maju, care to share which ones debuffs help a ton with? (Actually curious, not sarcastic.)
    (0)
    “That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.”

  2. #22
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Jeremi
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    Quetzalcoatl
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlko View Post
    Outside of gimmick fights like Maju, care to share which ones debuffs help a ton with? (Actually curious, not sarcastic.)
    I can name you a couple off top of my head.

    The AA taru: Paralyze II + Addle II can be effective at shutting down his spell casting. Silence can be very useful against Ouryu.

    Basically any Notorious Monster fight where Paralyze II and Silence can land or are effective have the potential to be very powerful spells.

    Again: I'm not saying it works on all notorious monsters. It doesn't. There are plenty of fights where enfeebles are nearly useless. But there are also plenty of fights where they can be very useful as well.

    That's why I would describe them as situational.
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    Last edited by Dale; 06-14-2017 at 09:55 AM.

  3. #23
    Player Jakuk's Avatar
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    Jakuk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale View Post
    I can name you a couple off top of my head.

    The AA taru: Paralyze II + Addle II can be effective at shutting down his spell casting. Silence can be very useful against Ouryu.

    Basically any Notorious Monster fight where Paralyze II and Silence can land or are effective have the potential to be very powerful spells.

    Again: I'm not saying it works on all notorious monsters. It doesn't. There are plenty of fights where enfeebles are nearly useless. But there are also plenty of fights where they can be very useful as well.

    That's why I would describe them as situational.
    Isn't that the point though, the thing they want RDM to be using shouldn't be "situational."
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  4. #24
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Saevel
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    Asura
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    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale View Post
    I tend to agree.

    Where Red Mage falls down in the healing department is it's lack of effective AoE healing. Accession has too long of a recast to be dependable and curaga II just doesn't cut it in a lot of fights. So giving Red mage cure V would solve nothing that I can see. This job is already an excellent single target healer.

    Now giving Red Mage the higher tier regens could make a real difference. So would giving them curaga III like you suggested.

    I'm not sure I would support such improvements though despite their usefulness. The Red Mage is not meant to be a primary healing class and should not be able to rival let's say a White mage considering that is suppose to be their specialty.

    Though I used to oppose this - I would settle for making spells like Haste II,Refresh III and Temper area spells so we can function more effectively as a support class.
    Well I was only discussing the Cure V component, in reality there needs to be a whole batch of adjustments for the three healing jobs.

    Curaga (WHM) III -> Level 49
    Erase II (WHM) -> Level 99 -> Removes multiple buffs based on enfeebling magic skill
    Dispell II (RDM) -> Level 99 -> Removes multiple debuffs based on healing magic skill
    Light Arts (SCH) -> effects enabled even if sub but only at the subs level.
    Regen III (RDM added)
    Accession works on Haste naturally

    Now we've created a unique meta between WHM, SCH and RDM. WHM gets the LA boosts from /SCH along with the unique ability to remove multiple debuffs. RDM gets Regen III and has to choose between /WHM's Curaga III and /SCH's Regen potency and Arts. SCH's get to choose between the utility of /RDM and the power of Curaga III from /WHM. All three jobs become able to heal both melee and tank orientated parties but with a different set of Pro's and Con's that the group will need to tailor it's strategy around. RDM healer could provide Haste II enabling the BRD to sing a different song for the second haste, and the RDM would provide enfeebling support, but the RDM's barspells (BIG reason to use WHM) aren't as powerful and they are going to need MP support as the fight drags on. SCH's can provide powerful regen effects along with having cheaper spells and native access to weather boosts but like RDM have weaker barspells. WHM's still king of absolute healing with the ability to remove multiple debuffs from party members.
    (0)
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelix
    Ragnarok's aftermath is only 5% crit rate, even with lv99, so there's almost no point in using Scourge, you just spam Resolution. Even then you become just a boring meathead DD.

    Apoc with both Catastrophe and Entropy gives you crazy sustain of both HP and MP. With the Haste aftermath you can wear a ton of -PDT and solo almost any 75 content.
    Doing damage is for WAR's, DRK is about soloing 75 content yo.....

  5. #25
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlko View Post
    Outside of gimmick fights like Maju, care to share which ones debuffs help a ton with? (Actually curious, not sarcastic.)
    Find out what Frazzle III, Distract III and Addle II do first. Then count what +enfeebling potency does to them, find out Saboteur does, then realize that it can all be stacked for some really silly stuff.

    I main heal Fu and Kei as RDM in omen.
    (0)
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelix
    Ragnarok's aftermath is only 5% crit rate, even with lv99, so there's almost no point in using Scourge, you just spam Resolution. Even then you become just a boring meathead DD.

    Apoc with both Catastrophe and Entropy gives you crazy sustain of both HP and MP. With the Haste aftermath you can wear a ton of -PDT and solo almost any 75 content.
    Doing damage is for WAR's, DRK is about soloing 75 content yo.....

  6. #26
    Player chiefhunglo's Avatar
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    Lordzphyr
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    Dude you don't play his character so you can't say he doesn't need this or that.
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  7. #27
    Player Nyarlko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    Find out what Frazzle III, Distract III and Addle II do first. Then count what +enfeebling potency does to them, find out Saboteur does, then realize that it can all be stacked for some really silly stuff.

    I main heal Fu and Kei as RDM in omen.
    I know what those do, and still wondering how many fights they really help with. ^^;; I know plenty of Idris GEOs, a couple REMA BRDs, but no RDMs with enough job points to even have access to those spells, so I have no experience with how much they help in comparison. How much better is Addle II over Pining Nocturne since the May update? Is Frazzle III reliably landed on highend stuff? I know there are quite a few targets that have painfully high dark resistance, but again, no personal experience w/ high end RDM. And also again, I'm not being sarcastic, I actually want to know. ^^;;
    (2)
    “That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.”

  8. #28
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakuk View Post
    Isn't that the point though, the thing they want RDM to be using shouldn't be "situational."
    If Red Mage was only good for enfeebles I would agree with you. But they also make for competent healers and buffers - and I'm told can even make good damage dealers. So they should be able to contribute in about any situation.
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  9. #29
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    Well I was only discussing the Cure V component, in reality there needs to be a whole batch of adjustments for the three healing jobs.

    Curaga (WHM) III -> Level 49
    Erase II (WHM) -> Level 99 -> Removes multiple buffs based on enfeebling magic skill
    Dispell II (RDM) -> Level 99 -> Removes multiple debuffs based on healing magic skill
    Light Arts (SCH) -> effects enabled even if sub but only at the subs level.
    Regen III (RDM added)
    Accession works on Haste naturally

    Now we've created a unique meta between WHM, SCH and RDM. WHM gets the LA boosts from /SCH along with the unique ability to remove multiple debuffs. RDM gets Regen III and has to choose between /WHM's Curaga III and /SCH's Regen potency and Arts. SCH's get to choose between the utility of /RDM and the power of Curaga III from /WHM. All three jobs become able to heal both melee and tank orientated parties but with a different set of Pro's and Con's that the group will need to tailor it's strategy around. RDM healer could provide Haste II enabling the BRD to sing a different song for the second haste, and the RDM would provide enfeebling support, but the RDM's barspells (BIG reason to use WHM) aren't as powerful and they are going to need MP support as the fight drags on. SCH's can provide powerful regen effects along with having cheaper spells and native access to weather boosts but like RDM have weaker barspells. WHM's still king of absolute healing with the ability to remove multiple debuffs from party members.
    I like your ideas for a dispel II that removes multiple enhancements. I also don't see the harm in giving Red Mage Regen III. So I can get behind those suggestions.

    Giving Red Mage access to Curaga III however I hesitate on - because that would make Red Mage an effective AoE healer when they are already powerful healers in their own right. For example: I'm not sure I would have ever bothered to level my White Mage if I could AoE heal well enough on my Red Mage.
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    Last edited by Dale; 07-16-2017 at 04:56 PM.

  10. #30
    Player Hawklaser's Avatar
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    Loftythoughts
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    Siren
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    DRG Lv 99
    As someone who plays Sch, Blu, and been working on Rdm off an on. I see no problem with allowing Rdm to have even Regen 4, after all, Rune Fencer even gets it. Maybe even regen 5 if needed, so long as the +hp per tic for light arts stays exclusive to a Sch main. As part of what makes Sch unique and fun is that it is the Dot/HoT class for XI and you do have to plan ahead to get the most out of it.

    The big difference I noticed in Sch and Whm healing while I leveled both, is Whm has the tools to react to a big nasty aoe or two going off close together frequently and/or often. Sch has to plan ahead by making sure a Regen is on everyone in advance maybe even stoneskin, as well as not being caught in Dark arts when it happens(though a main healing Sch should not be going into Dark arts unless need more dps to try and beat a timer). Sch can deal with this a bit thanks to accension. And Rdm is even worse off.

    Maybe Rdm could do with getting access to foil(more so if accensionable). I would suggest giving Rdm a few new enhancing spells, but I doubt that would happen at this point. Such as Saber, either as a targetable acc/attack buff or targetable version of Temper. Could split into two different spells for the acc and attack if needed. A dispel 2 that can remove multiple enhancements would be good too. Stoneskin 2 and blink 2 might be additional candidates for Rdm provided they would be targetable(would also give Rdm its own unique healing style to of placing barriers to absorb damage in advance and would be beneficial for against mobs with fatal/near fatal spike damage)

    Really on the enhancing side of things, the biggest strike against Rdm is majority are single target or self target only. So if their focus is mainly supposed to be enhance/enfeeble, why do they not get the aoe versions of them at this point? AoE cures and nukes I don't see ever fitting in on Rdm, but Protectra, Bindga, paralyzega, etc. I do see as very Rdm appropriate.

    The enfeebling side, it seems to be more due to how hard it is to land them vs how easy it is for a Geo to inflict two key ones. I do have one big question here, and that is does Geo Enfeebles stack with other enfeebles? If no, something definitely needs to change, if yes all it should take is some adjustments to how hard it is for Rdm to land them(maybe via a job trait, like +accuracy for enfeebles only), and while speaking of job traits, would occult acumen be OP to give to Rdm if there role is to be a hybrid melee/mage?
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