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  1. #61
    Player Kishr's Avatar
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    Nov 2016
    Posts
    130
    Character
    Kishr
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Enjoy your my opinion is better attitude, that's all it is.

    Mine is, the current system works fine.

    That's my feedback.
    If you don't like it, I didn't ask for your opinion. If you can't talk without aggressive speech, clearly charmers merlin is the least of your worries right now.
    (0)

  2. #62
    Player Rwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    373
    Character
    Rwolf
    World
    Bismarck
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    My opinion is the same as anyone else. I enjoy pros and cons. State your opinions and discuss.

    You came in aggressive, cursing, demeaning and personally attacking posters. And wrong, not opinion. Fact that Charmer's merlin affects Pet DPS and Master DPS because it is not an item level weapon and swapping loses TP.

    I'm not trying to convince you. I dont care what you believe. But I'm not going to ignore aggressive claims to my posts. Clearly you want to turn this into some focal point of still being aggressive while victimizing.

    You can take a block as well. The topic is more important than dueling with your bruised ego.
    (0)

  3. #63
    Player Nyclia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    84
    Character
    Nyclia
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    Just a little add for Square Enix.

    I heared from other players that they stopped playing BST because of this ridiculous low distance to use pet moves. I will do the same from now on, since i can't live/play with it. Totally destroyed the fun and i just feel restricted too much.

    If i have to be BST in Omen, then there is no avoiding it. But that's it. Thx SE...
    (3)

  4. #64
    Player Songen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    327
    Character
    Horu
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    I believe the macro for melee bst and charmers's fitting in as Kishr is stating is
    (Remember with current capped haste/haste/double attack/triple attack/store tp)
    3-10 seconds master building tp
    /equipset ??? (What ever is your WS set)
    /ws "Masters WS name" <t>
    /wait 3
    /equipset ??? (What ever is your pet WS set is including charmer's in OFF hand which won't affect pet ilv since ilv is based off main hand, at which point masters tp is reseting)
    /pet "WSname" <t>
    /wait 1
    /equipset ??? (This will remove charmer's and re-equip masters tp set including offhanding masters tp axe and reseting masters tp again)

    3-10 seconds tp build for master again then repeat

    In theory if your soloing, or duoing, or you and your pet are the only WSers, SCing is better, while its about a 12-15 second rotation it is a stronger set since you can max out pet recast (Gaining or lossing recast time depending on your haste/tp set) while creating SCs for the pet, for example. Spinning axe a 7k -> Razor fang 15k = 9k Fusion SC for 60% of the dmg, (Total colated dmg of 31k in 15 seconds)
    Of cause to achieve those numbers you would need to have a fairly good set for both pet/master and their respective tp/WS sets, also if you have a geo with geohaste/defence down and/or cor with sam roll and beast roll you can achieve higher numbers than that because of mobs less defence and faster tp build (Meaning the master scales better too(E.g. 12k Spinning axe -> 20k Razor fang = 12k SC equalling a total of 44k in 15 seconds)

    While the pet's WS does scale with tp, your not gonna get much in a 15 second period (Even with double attack/haste sets), so causing a SC will add more dmg by the time it comes around.

    Having said that, if pet burn partys(Where you have 3-10 pet jobs going nuts), master meleeing is out of the question since they need to be out of range of mobs AoE attacks/enfeebles during cooldown times

    Conclusion: Its all about how good your gear is, what the situation is: Is someone gonna break your SC?, are you using unleash?, Is the mob's AoE attacks going to affect you with status ailments that will affect your tp build time or give you things that stop your ability to use a pet? such a paralyse, sleep,petrify, tp reset, Or a move that'll down right kill you, etc etc .

    Thats my opinion, feel free to think what you like, i adjust to the situation
    (0)
    Last edited by Songen; 06-13-2017 at 11:10 PM.

  5. #65
    Player Nyarlko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    1,523
    Character
    Nyarlko
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Songen View Post
    I believe the macro for melee bst and charmers's fitting in as Kishr is stating is
    (Remember with current capped haste/haste/double attack/triple attack/store tp)
    3-10 seconds master building tp
    /equipset ??? (What ever is your WS set)
    /ws "Masters WS name" <t>
    /wait 3
    /equipset ??? (What ever is your pet WS set is including charmer's in OFF hand which won't affect pet ilv since ilv is based off main hand, at which point masters tp is reseting)
    /pet "WSname" <t>
    /wait 1
    /equipset ??? (This will remove charmer's and re-equip masters tp set including offhanding masters tp axe and reseting masters tp again)

    3-10 seconds tp build for master again then repeat

    In theory if your soloing, or duoing, or you and your pet are the only WSers, SCing is better, while its about a 12-15 second rotation it is a stronger set since you can max out pet recast (Gaining or lossing recast time depending on your haste/tp set) while creating SCs for the pet, for example. Spinning axe a 7k -> Razor fang 15k = 13k Fusion SC for 60% of the dmg, (Total colated dmg of 35k in 15 seconds)
    Of cause to achieve those numbers you would need to have a fairly good set for both pet/master and their respective tp/WS sets, also if you have a geo with geohaste/defence down and/or cor with sam roll and beast roll you can achieve higher numbers than that because of mobs less defence and faster tp build (Meaning the master scales better too(E.g. 12k Spinning axe -> 20k Razor fang = 12k SC equalling a total of 44k in 15 seconds)

    While the pet's WS does scale with tp, your not gonna get much in a 15 second period (Even with double attack/haste sets), so causing a SC will add more dmg by the time it comes around.

    Having said that, if pet burn partys(Where you have 3-10 pet jobs going nuts), master meleeing is out of the question since they need to be out of range of mobs AoE attacks/enfeebles during cooldown times

    Conclusion: Its all about how good your gear is, what the situation is: Is someone gonna break your SC?, are you using unleash?, Is the mob's AoE attacks going to affect you with status ailments that will affect your tp build time or give you things that stop your ability to use a pet? such a paralyse, sleep,petrify, tp reset, Or a move that'll down right kill you, etc etc .

    Thats my opinion, feel free to think what you like, i adjust to the situation
    Keep in mind that a well-geared pet-only BST is likely to have a full wardrobe+ just for pets and would likely need 20-40 slots to properly set up for meleeing as well.. I see no logic or reasonable justification for any job requiring 120+ pieces of gear to play the way the devs want us to. They would need to give us a JT to share stats between master/pet to keep inventory requirements from exploding.

    Also, while you are TPing, your pet is likely missing. So, a big question is whether or not your personal output matches your pet's. That includes factoring in the damage lost over time due to delaying Readys and missed white damage VS master white damage plus WS. When Ready-5 can result in a 50% increase in Ready damage (15sec > 10sec = 4/min > 6/min, and why we bother using Charmer's at all at this point,) you really need something in order to justify every extra second between Readys.

    None of that even takes into account that BST melee is BORING! >_<;; It is literally nothing but auto-attack > WS spam... If I wanted to whack things with an axe, I'd jump on WAR since they can WS AND have actual JA/JT that affect combat! /shock

    I've experimented with the playstyle before and our best bet would probably be changing pets from the common standards, though we're looking at primarily 3-charge moves...
    Tulfaire can make Darkness with you (Primal Rend/Onslaugh > Pentapeck), and Light with you (Cloudsplitter > Swooping Frenzy.)
    Chapuli can make Darkness (Cloudsplitter > Tegmina Buffet.)
    Raptor can make Darkness (Cloudsplitter/Ruinator > Chomp Rush.)
    Apkallu can make Darkness (Cloudsplitter/Ruinator > Wing Slap.)

    A big restriction though is that pet always has to close due to master TP loss. All require 2-3-charge moves, so you are looking at a SC every 20-30sec. Odds are against this providing more overall damage output over time without painfully excessive gearing. A properly geared melee BST's damage output is likely to be higher solo SC spamming while ignoring the pet entirely. (One of my first Apex CP parties ever had a melee BST who was cranking out 30k-50k Cloudsplitters every 3-4sec or so... If he had bothered with his pet, it would be numerically impossible for the pet to compensate for his personal damage loss.. This was before Reisenjima was added too, so should be able to reach higher numbers now I'd think.)

    It also doesn't really matter if it's theoretically possible to pull off both if, in order to do so, it requires twice as much gear as any other job, and twice as complicated to pull off numbers that are likely to be, at best, similar to what a simpler-to-gear melee can do. The current BST JA range is a direct hindrance to playing it the way we are being told to. It is an unarguable problem when any jobs' JA range is less than melee range on certain targets.
    (3)
    Last edited by Nyarlko; 06-13-2017 at 11:58 PM.
    “That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.”

  6. #66
    Player Gwydion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    365
    Character
    Galkashield
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    THF Lv 1
    I agree.

    BST is all about the pet. I don't TP as BST to keep my pet with high stats.

    I've played BST solo and in party for about 15 years and the distance changes to 7 yalms, is truly heartbreaking.
    (3)

  7. #67
    Player Songen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    327
    Character
    Horu
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlko View Post
    Keep in mind that a well-geared pet-only BST is likely to have a full wardrobe+ just for pets and would likely need 20-40 slots to properly set up for meleeing as well.. I see no logic or reasonable justification for any job requiring 120+ pieces of gear to play the way the devs want us to. They would need to give us a JT to share stats between master/pet to keep inventory requirements from exploding.

    Also, while you are TPing, your pet is likely missing. So, a big question is whether or not your personal output matches your pet's. That includes factoring in the damage lost over time due to delaying Readys and missed white damage VS master white damage plus WS. When Ready-5 can result in a 50% increase in Ready damage (15sec > 10sec = 4/min > 6/min, and why we bother using Charmer's at all at this point,) you really need something in order to justify every extra second between Readys.

    None of that even takes into account that BST melee is BORING! >_<;; It is literally nothing but auto-attack > WS spam... If I wanted to whack things with an axe, I'd jump on WAR since they can WS AND have actual JA/JT that affect combat! /shock

    I've experimented with the playstyle before and our best bet would probably be changing pets from the common standards, though we're looking at primarily 3-charge moves...
    Tulfaire can make Darkness with you (Primal Rend/Onslaugh > Pentapeck), and Light with you (Cloudsplitter > Swooping Frenzy.)
    Chapuli can make Darkness (Cloudsplitter > Tegmina Buffet.)
    Raptor can make Darkness (Cloudsplitter/Ruinator > Chomp Rush.)
    Apkallu can make Darkness (Cloudsplitter/Ruinator > Wing Slap.)

    A big restriction though is that pet always has to close due to master TP loss. All require 2-3-charge moves, so you are looking at a SC every 20-30sec. Odds are against this providing more overall damage output over time without painfully excessive gearing. A properly geared melee BST's damage output is likely to be higher solo SC spamming while ignoring the pet entirely. (One of my first Apex CP parties ever had a melee BST who was cranking out 30k-50k Cloudsplitters every 3-4sec or so... If he had bothered with his pet, it would be numerically impossible for the pet to compensate for his personal damage loss.. This was before Reisenjima was added too, so should be able to reach higher numbers now I'd think.)

    It also doesn't really matter if it's theoretically possible to pull off both if, in order to do so, it requires twice as much gear as any other job, and twice as complicated to pull off numbers that are likely to be, at best, similar to what a simpler-to-gear melee can do. The current BST JA range is a direct hindrance to playing it the way we are being told to. It is an unarguable problem when any jobs' JA range is less than melee range on certain targets.
    I said it before, and this reply from you proves it. Your here to troll and thats it. since you have already said your a master bst you would have realised you would simply add 1 set of master tp gear and 1 set of master WS gear (Thats a max of 18-24 pieces) on top of what you already have (Since I can presume you already havel the best bst pet gear since you already use bst's ready commands in the first place and as for most people, they would already have the master tp/ws gear from other jobs that use the same slots).

    White dmg? i broke it with masters WS dmg (600-1k pet dmg to a masters 7kdmg?),

    Its better to use cloudsplitter to a level 3 pet WS? you odviously have no idea how the whole SC process works in matching it with a pet (And whats needed to make that kind of dmg) since you only observed that bst use it and never tried using it properly yourself, i am very familiar with cloudspliter and its potentual however you have no liking for it since you already said "BST melee is BORING" so don't be a hypocrite.
    I also know very well what SCs do in terms of dmg (Expecially since i was replying in terms of "ready spam vs master + pet ready combo" and i was replying in terms of maximising the dmg potentual in that situation)

    While i could break down your entire arguement, Theres no reason, I already stated that : how you play is situational (Summed up),

    Just because you don't like what someones saying even if its based on facts and experience, you shouldn't be bias about it I know your only here to troll with baseless values as you already have and probably always will. Get a life and stop trolling.

    If there are those who say they like to melee or don't like to melee, or they want to use their pet only or want to use it in a combo, let them do that. Don't disregard someone else's opinion because your bias
    (0)

  8. #68
    Player Nyarlko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    1,523
    Character
    Nyarlko
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Songen View Post
    I said it before, and this reply from you proves it. Your here to troll and thats it.
    You need to chill. Might also want to look up the definition of "trolling" since you really don't seem to have a proper grasp of the meaning of the word. ^^

    since you have already said your a master bst you would have realised you would simply add 1 set of master tp gear and 1 set of master WS gear (Thats a max of 18-24 pieces) on top of what you already have (Since I can presume you already havel the best bst pet gear since you already use bst's ready commands in the first place and as for most people, they would already have the master tp/ws gear from other jobs that use the same slots).
    Yep, I have good pet gear for my BST, though I'm not BIS for the most part (no REMA, Oseem hates me, etc.) I have nearly zero melee armor that can be shared with BST since I play BST/BLU/BLM/THF/GEO. Accessories are alljobs for the most part, so should be able to double up and cut down on some acquisitions, but I'd probably be looking at farming up an extra 3-5+ full Valorous sets depending on how proper a job I want to do. My estimate may be just me wanting to not-suck, but it is a fact that others are not super likely to have much melee gear that BST can wear.

    Last I checked, axe provides more than a single ws that would require a set. Even your "18-24" falls within my "20-40" but probably doesn't account for everything that I am accounting for (Cure set, enhancing set, high-acc set, low-acc set, multiple WS set, etc.) It takes a lot more than a single TP set and a single WS set to be not-useless as a melee, regardless of the job.

    White dmg? i broke it with masters WS dmg (600-1k pet dmg to a masters 7kdmg?),
    If your pet does not do comparable white damage to a melee job, then you need to work on your pet TP set. >.>;; They should be close to each other if geared decently, but pets tend to perform a bit better than the player at lower gear levels. A full melee geared BST would probably do more than a pet, but basing discussion on BIS scenarios is never a wise thing to do since the majority won't be able to reach that level.

    Its better to use cloudsplitter to a level 3 pet WS? you odviously have no idea how the whole SC process works in matching it with a pet (And whats needed to make that kind of dmg) since you only observed that bst use it and never tried using it properly yourself, i am very familiar with cloudspliter and its potentual however you have no liking for it since you already said "BST melee is BORING" so don't be a hypocrite.
    I also know very well what SCs do in terms of dmg (Expecially since i was replying in terms of "ready spam vs master + pet ready combo" and i was replying in terms of maximising the dmg potentual in that situation)
    You also need to look up the definition for "hypocrite" since you are again, not using a word properly. ^^;; Saying basically "Well, >this< could work but I personally don't like that playstyle." is not being hypocritical. You don't have to actively do something in order to discuss the viability of doing so.

    I used my Apex story as an example of what we are capable of when geared for it, it's a good thing! It would also be a straight mathematical damage loss in that gear to bother with hitting a Ready macro, regardless of which pet you want to use. That doesn't change due to my personal reluctance to gear up an unsupported melee job in order to melee.

    For master+pet skillchains, I believe that the math is probably in favor of doing lv3 SC instead of lv1-2, due to increased Ready, skillchain and MB damage. In non-capped scenarios, Tegmina can be expected to do ~2x as much as Razor Fang for instance, which will result in higher base SC damage and MB damage. If your pet is attack ratio capped, then using 1-charge moves would be better, but in that case, you are rolling with a group which would most likely change your priority list anyway.

    It's unarguable that BST melee is boring by comparison to every other intended-to-melee job by default. We have no JA/JT/magic to support/enhance meleeing other than Fencer, which is frequently outweighed by the benefits of dual-wielding (which I personally feel should be a native trait to unlock our subjob choices.) Can you honestly say that having no active abilities and doing nothing but hitting a ws macro every few seconds sounds not-boring? ^^;; In case you were doing so, you can not include most subjob resources when looking at job balance, and the lack of anything to encourage us to hit things with an axe leaves BST in a very unexciting position.

    While i could break down your entire arguement, Theres no reason, I already stated that : how you play is situational (Summed up),

    Just because you don't like what someones saying even if its based on facts and experience, you shouldn't be bias about it I know your only here to troll with baseless values as you already have and probably always will. Get a life and stop trolling.

    If there are those who say they like to melee or don't like to melee, or they want to use their pet only or want to use it in a combo, let them do that. Don't disregard someone else's opinion because your bias
    I have said that BST has no encouragement to melee, complained about the additional space requirements to do so, doubted the possibility of properly gearing both master+pet simultaneously, and doubted the potential for master+pet damage output being superior to either alone when they are focused. I'm just looking at the napkin math and not seeing master+pet being better overall. In order to do so, you will have to sacrifice something, whether it's attack power, TP gain, SC timing, etc. As I mentioned earlier, I have experimented with it, and my results showed me that it was a loss to do so. (The melee gear I used has since been re-augmented due to uselessness so can't easily retest btw.)

    The only bias that I believe to have shown would be relying on my own experience for a good part of my arguments. I do not believe that the numbers will be better for master+pet than focusing either master-only or pet-only based on my own experience or that the work/inventory involved in gearing up specifically to do so would be a worthwhile endeavor.


    ....... but that's enough derailment of the thread. We should be debating how badly BST's JA range sucks, not whether or not master+pet is viable. ><;;;

    I apologize to the OP. orz {Please forgive me.}
    (2)
    “That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.”

  9. #69
    Player Kishr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    130
    Character
    Kishr
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Has popcorn, it's back!
    (0)

  10. #70
    Player Rwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    373
    Character
    Rwolf
    World
    Bismarck
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    The previous argument that was going on was based on stating there is no correlation between Charmer's Merlin and DPS while throwing insults. Sure, you can decide to play melee BST and swap out to Charmer's and a Pet bonus axe for Ready moves.

    But let's not act like there is no DPS loss from the loss of TP returned from the WS plus the couple seconds it's going to take you in a macro to cycle through back to a TP set. Every 10 seconds. And that's not counting waiting to open a SC for your pet or lose the TP you built. Master haste is not going to change this away from a loss. There's a reason melee don't swap weapons for JAs and magic.

    I understand there are players who like the pet only play style and their opinions should be heard. My concern is the solution to rely on rough distance mechanics to fix BST. It has no logical reasoning behind it. There are a host of less complicated ways that are better design to push BST to the front line.

    The last words on SE in regard of vision of the job and the reason for distance nerf was that the master should be meleeing with the pet. And my feedback is that nerf did nothing to help melee, and it barely changed the need to be in the front line. Most groups using BST are just running in and out of range between TP moves and magic. Using shadows/blink/stoneskin/etc as a fallback in case they get hit.

    It is ridiculous in my opinion. If SE states hey we changed our mind and whatever works is their mindset. I'll take it for what it is. And encourage feedback based on that.

    But currently this distance thing is not worth it and counter intuitive to how the rest of the jobs play. I'd rather they look into things like adjusting pet damage and stats, how buffs that affect pets stack, hybrid gear, etc.
    (5)

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