Ninja merits, job traits and abilitys

[Darwena]

We are shuriken ninja, and we don't play alone. -- dattebayo

NPC and mules doesn't count.

[vixin]

Bulroog send me invite i got a awsome ra /sange set ;] we can do new new limbus update nin status woot woot

[Bulrogg]

Good stuff. 8)

But don't even the elites like 12oz play with mules? Or at least he advocates it in part of his get new linkshell, more friends, level mule, etc. argument for when you're doing things wrong.

But what has this got to do with anything relater to ninja merits, job traits and abilities?

All digs aside, there is a presence of players that choose to use sange and throwing as needed; cheers to SE for continuing to update/adjust that aspect of the job. I look forward to autumn to see what adjustments are in sight for ranged attack delay. I hope their only targets aren't RNG and COR.

[wish12oz]

Forgot to look at this forum for a few days, lol.

Do you have a rough idea at what point of gear aimed completely at supporting melee, that these things become notably inferior?

I think I answered everything you ask in the other thread, except maybe this.
Given the horrible options available for throwing weapons, I would guess once you acquire anything above 30% total haste you're better off meleeing. If this is a question about when throwing starts to suck for leveling, that's in the mid 60's because of the bad shurikens you have to work with.

I therefore ask if your opposition to things other than melee applies only to players who would be using them when melee is an option. If not, can you please provide a general idea of how a NIN without certain Atma or under certain lowman conditions manages to severely outpace their potential throwing damage with their melee if repositioning is required.

I don't really understand this. If a mob is running around, the tank is doing it wrong, if you think there's ever a time where you shouldn't be meleeing something, that's you doing it wrong.

Whether or not this applies to Sange of course is a different matter since the delay issue changes drastically and you're almost literally doing 6x the damage of one throw if you are geared for that which would, theoretically, do about 3000 damage on anything weak to piercing.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post310016
I talked about this here, just posting the link here so anyone who views this thread can see it.

My conclusion is that when you are not yet in possession of gear that pushes your effective number of attacks per melee round past 2.11 (assuming 40% haste and around 45% Dual Wield as well), Sange is probably still worth it if you have the Shuriken for it and are hitting most/all hits, in terms of spike damage.

Given the fact that available shurikens are trash, I would expect it to be a bit more in melees favor than this, if you have around 45% total delay reduction, and any sort of decent katanas, I would expect meleeing to be superior to using sange.

As for throwing ITSELF, it must be accepted that wish12oz is right and that unless something changes, melee will never lose to it. This is because throwing is unaffected by haste, we have minimal ways of seriously reducing its delay, and my testing as well shows that there is a delay after the actual throw which is the true culprit here, cutting into our damage rating the most.

From the wiki:
Ranged delay is about twice as fast as melee delay : 110 delay = 1 second
Ranged weapon delay is the only variable affecting the total delay.
Ranged attack delay is divided into 3 phases :
1. Pulling out ranged weapon, aiming, and shooting : this time span is calculated by : Weapon Delay / 110. A successful Rapid Shot activation reduces the aiming time (the time between pulling back the string and actual firing of the shot) to 0.
2. After shooting → putting back ranged weapon : This delay usually takes 1.7 second to 1.8 second. However, occasionally, it can take fluctuate from 1.6 second to 1.9 second
3. "Free" phase : at this time span, melee timer is un-paused. The minimum time this delay can have is 1.1 second

So the delay between shot of ranged weapon is :
Delay = (Weapon Delay/110)s + 1.7s~1.8s + 1.1s

So for shuriken attack delay, it will be
(192/110)+1.75+1.1=4.59seconds per ranged attack with 193 delay shurikens

There's actually 2 delays that cannot be changed and the whole thing stops the ability to melee. The 4.59 seconds listed above is time you cannot get new melee attacks.

What throwing needs is for us to not have a 'pulling out and putting away weapon' phase to it. Until we get that, nothing else we request or complain about can make any real difference

I'm so glad you get it!

But don't even the elites like 12oz play with mules? Or at least he advocates it in part of his get new linkshell, more friends, level mule, etc. argument for when you're doing things wrong

Playing with more than 1 mule is doing it wrong though, mules are mainly for extra income, I personally pay for a few accounts right now, but I wouldn't bring more than 2 characters to anything but a cruor or cleave party. But anyway, ya, leveling a WHM to be able to do more by yourself isn't a bad thing. You could even level SCH on it, get 500 enhancing skill and play rune watcher in nyzul with it and only need to find one other person with it leveled for the event.

mules = good, friends = good, LS's that do more than farm gear for the leaders = good.

[wish12oz]

All digs aside, there is a presence of players that choose to use sange and throwing as needed;

It's not needed, EVER

Reposting this so you see it
You guys that love throwing so much are aware that by claiming throwing is at all useful right now, you're only hurting yourselves right? I could care less if throwing is made good, but you obviously want it to be good. Saying its useful now and trying to convince the DEVs of that will not get you throwing updated in a way to make it good, you'll only get a slightly better outcome than you have now, and it will still be useless and you'll still be ridiculed for being throwing ninjas. Saying it's good/useful is not what you want to be doing. Just take the hit, admit you know throwing is horrible, and you only use it because you think it's fun to RP Naruto, and we can all move on and maybe you'll get the update you so desperately want.

[Nala]

been lurking both threads on the topic, bit fed up with the matter, wish12oz is correct, that is if you fail to conceded his(her?) points made on melee vs throwing the dev team will not even consider improving this "incredibly useful" trait of ninja, yeah sure range delay adjustments are on the horizon.

I wouldn't hold my breath on the dev team getting it right, furthermore base damage of shuriken, stack size and having a recipe that is both profitable to the crafter and leaves the stack price economical enough to be practical, further more tool stacks of shuriken added, and some way have them classified as tools to take advantage of NTE considering nin has no natural recycle trait, and at this time frugal cape is the only gear peice i can think of a nin can wear.

but nope not getting any of the above throwing is fine as it is, a very useful tool for nins keep on advocating you're only hurting that which you defend so vehemently.

for the record i thought it was fun back in the day using shuriken as well, but i in no way care for that side of nin at this point, as wish has said before if you're doing it right having room in your inventory for a sange/throwing set afterwards, you wont.

Post Edit: and if you really want to obsess over the whole ninja throwing thing considering ninjutsu uses tools and does not actually magic agro i always envisioned ninjutsu as being the substitute for the throw able scrolls that were available in previous FF's the scrolls you use to learn ninjutsu teach's the technique for using the tools, so you are actually throwing tools at the mob when casting ninjutsu, there enough role play for you yet?