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Thread: Nerf SMN

  1. #81
    Player Selindrile's Avatar
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    Character
    Selindrile
    World
    Asura
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    BLU Lv 99
    This mirrors my sentiments on the matter, ESPECIALLY with the way the "Geo Nerf" was handled, if anyone noticed, the nerf completely bounced off Geo, we still use them for everything.

    But, because they can no longer protect melees as well (Vex/Attune) or buff Blms as well, (Focus/Languor), these tasks didn't get picked up by other jobs, like SE was hoping.

    Why? Alternatives for these things are either mostly too weak or situational to truly replace Geo for those situations, instead, the strategies that involved these things simply fell by the wayside by and large, and the strategies that allowed us to not have to deal with these things at all, instead of mitigating them, won out.
    (2)
    Last edited by Selindrile; 08-04-2017 at 12:00 PM.

  2. #82
    Player Frodnon's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Character
    Frod
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    Asura
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Rwolf View Post
    To be honest, there are a least a handful of jobs soloing Reisenjima T3. Search for T3 solo videos. I've seen BLU and SCH soloing them off the top of my head. Haven't seen SMN but I don't discount it. Without being super charged by a GEO and COR, I don't see it capable of melting a T3 and avoiding mechanics altogether solo.
    Papesse did yakshi and oncycophora fairly recently with trusts. He's under the name duesssa on youtube.
    (0)

  3. #83
    Player Shiyo's Avatar
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    Character
    Kitori
    World
    Bahamut
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    NIN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeargi View Post
    You do realize that all avatars have to be in Melee range to use their Physical Blood Pacts, right? Avatars have substantially less HP than players and other pets outside of Wyverns. They are still susceptible to all status debuffs including Amnesia, ATT/MACC/ACC/DEF/etc Down with them having a slightly higher resistance to elemental debuffs that are their elements or the ones they're strong versus (E.I. Leviathan and Ifrit are slightly less likely to get Amnesia) So, meaning that if an Avatar dies or is inflicted with something that prevents their actions like stun/terror/amnesia/petrify/etc then AC basically becomes useless because it only lasts for 30s.

    Again, this isn't solely a SMN problem. Summoner burns are nothing new. I've said it before: The old Promy Fight, Those were SMN burned. Waking the Beast: Alliance of solely SMNs. The problems is that the game has shifted so hard to punish melee fighting with extreme AoEs and spamming of things like Full Clears of Debuffs. To add on top of all this, most enemies HP Skyrocket to unGodly amounts with more people that you bring. The problem is that this MMO punishes you for playing with other people. Nerfing SMN isn't what needs to happen. the Nerfing that should be looked at is the redesigning of the MOBS themselves.
    What is with this summoner main mindset? You don't REDESIGN the entire game because >>ONE SINGLE JOB<< out 22 can completely obliterate the game and nearly game shark through it with ease. That's completely insane - do you honestly expect such a small developer team to redesign the ENTIRE game because of a SINGLE job?

    Anyways, more onto your point. Pets can be indefinitely resummoned without res weakness, players cannot.
    (0)

  4. #84
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Saevel
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    Asura
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    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeargi View Post
    You do realize that all avatars have to be in Melee range to use their Physical Blood Pacts, right?
    Ok compromise, every time an avatar is defeated the SMN is inflicted with a 5 minute weakness effect and has all their buffs removed. Also we reduce the pet -DT cap to 50%.
    (0)
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelix
    Ragnarok's aftermath is only 5% crit rate, even with lv99, so there's almost no point in using Scourge, you just spam Resolution. Even then you become just a boring meathead DD.

    Apoc with both Catastrophe and Entropy gives you crazy sustain of both HP and MP. With the Haste aftermath you can wear a ton of -PDT and solo almost any 75 content.
    Doing damage is for WAR's, DRK is about soloing 75 content yo.....

  5. #85
    Player Zeargi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiyo View Post
    What is with this summoner main mindset? You don't REDESIGN the entire game because >>ONE SINGLE JOB<< out 22 can completely obliterate the game and nearly game shark through it with ease. That's completely insane - do you honestly expect such a small developer team to redesign the ENTIRE game because of a SINGLE job?
    Anyways, more onto your point. Pets can be indefinitely resummoned without res weakness, players cannot.
    All I hear, is that everyone is complaining about those stupid aeonic weapons. Look at changing those mobs and your problem will be solved. Correct, SMN's Avatars aren't hindered by weakness, but neither are the pets of BSTs, DRGs, or PUPs. The other solution which should have been is to give WHM and SCH the means to remove weakness at this point in the game. The NPC Ferreous Coffin has Reviviscence, so it's already in the game as it is. And earlier you said that no other job can do what SMN can, and that's completely not true. COR, SCH, SAM, DRK, DRG, BLU, and even RDM to some extent are all strong DDs. I have someone on my server that plays DRG and teams up with a GEO, and he completely outclasses other players. I have a BLU is my LS, and he's unGodly stong and was often the deciding factor of a few Wanted/Escha wins.


    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    Ok compromise, every time an avatar is defeated the SMN is inflicted with a 5 minute weakness effect and has all their buffs removed. Also we reduce the pet -DT cap to 50%.
    No, that's not a compromise at all. The Trial-Size Trials for SMN would be complete un-doable, and you punish SMNs that are starting out.
    (0)
    "What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets. But enough talk... Have at you!" Lord Dracula - [Castlevania:SotN]

  6. #86
    Player Nyarlko's Avatar
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    Nyarlko
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    Asura
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    BST Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    Ok compromise, every time an avatar is defeated the SMN is inflicted with a 5 minute weakness effect and has all their buffs removed. Also we reduce the pet -DT cap to 50%.
    Limit that to "Avatars" at least. There is no reason that BST/DRG/PUP need to get nerfed.
    (0)
    “That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.”

  7. #87
    Player Rwolf's Avatar
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    Rwolf
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    Bismarck
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    RDM Lv 99
    Just to clarify my posts that are being misinterpreted. I didn't say SMN was incapable of soloing Reisenjima T3 or certain HELMs. Simply that I hadn't seen it yet. I believed it was possible. GEO and COR support = party. I was saying it takes party support not that it takes a prebuff SMN only to solo.

    Not sure why SMN solo is even mentioned in a nerf SMN thread. They aren't doing something so extraordinary that no other job can accomplish. AC might luckily take a huge chunk of life if the avatar is not disabled or killed on high content. But it's not avoiding mechanics solo.
    (0)

  8. #88
    Player Rwolf's Avatar
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    Rwolf
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    Back to Astral Conduit. I don't think it is inherently bad. I agree that eventually enough changes made it capable of massively getting crazy when well geared and supported.
    • The combination of multi attack, pet support/bubbles and speed of execution together is an issue with damage.
    • It also has zero reason to use for Wards.
    • It guarantees we're never going to see improvements to anything else like Wards effectiveness.

    I don't even know how it gets to these suggestions to nerf SMN as a whole or into the ground completely. Regardless of decision to nerf AC. The dev team certainly does need to work on better pauses and mechanics during fights. The dev team is too small excuse in discussion is getting old.

    Majority of fights are HP increase per player and time based. It is inherent that players will find the meta to be whatever is the fastest, safest, and easiest to execute reliably. You cannot fight that nature. Having fights being more about 100% kill it fast is going to always boil down to who does that best. Which means even if you burn SMN to ashes. The next meta will just have you bandwagon angry at the next job.

    As long as combat is focused on zerg objective, kill as fast and overwhelmingly as possible. It will never change, just shift. Might as well put a monthly campaign in where <insert job> is "OP" this month. Because that's all nerfing a job into submission is.

    Nerfing jobs to the point that it's rarely used and/or ineffective has never fixed this game. Distance didn't fix BST meta, mob nerfs did. GEO corrections didn't make it more likely to use BRD, BRD changes did and some ambuscade where NiTro lullaby was appealing.

    There is a middle ground somewhere.
    (2)

  9. #89
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Saevel
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rwolf View Post
    Back to Astral Conduit. I don't think it is inherently bad. I agree that eventually enough changes made it capable of massively getting crazy when well geared and supported.
    • The combination of multi attack, pet support/bubbles and speed of execution together is an issue with damage.
    • It also has zero reason to use for Wards.
    • It guarantees we're never going to see improvements to anything else like Wards effectiveness.

    I don't even know how it gets to these suggestions to nerf SMN as a whole or into the ground completely. Regardless of decision to nerf AC. The dev team certainly does need to work on better pauses and mechanics during fights. The dev team is too small excuse in discussion is getting old.

    Majority of fights are HP increase per player and time based. It is inherent that players will find the meta to be whatever is the fastest, safest, and easiest to execute reliably. You cannot fight that nature. Having fights being more about 100% kill it fast is going to always boil down to who does that best. Which means even if you burn SMN to ashes. The next meta will just have you bandwagon angry at the next job.

    As long as combat is focused on zerg objective, kill as fast and overwhelmingly as possible. It will never change, just shift. Might as well put a monthly campaign in where <insert job> is "OP" this month. Because that's all nerfing a job into submission is.

    Nerfing jobs to the point that it's rarely used and/or ineffective has never fixed this game. Distance didn't fix BST meta, mob nerfs did. GEO corrections didn't make it more likely to use BRD, BRD changes did and some ambuscade where NiTro lullaby was appealing.

    There is a middle ground somewhere.
    There already is a solution, it's the same on used on BLM back when they used to time nuke / chain nuke all the High Level content to death.

    We've already had a situation like this that was corrected before and I'm not talking about BST's. Many moons ago we had legions of BLM's lining up and time nuking / bursting NM's for obscene damage and this method was so safe and easy that it became the gold standard for all challenging content, especially after the Ranger nerf. SE's answer as to create a resistance wall that BLM's chain nuking would rapidly run into. The first two nukes would largely be unaffected but the third and subsequent nuke would rapidly diminish in damage, after a few seconds the resistance reset. This had the effect of not nerfing BLM's individual damage while preventing an army of BLMs from steamrolling everything. Something similar needs to happen to SMN's BP damage, an individual SMN won't be effected but a group of them would be.
    (0)
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelix
    Ragnarok's aftermath is only 5% crit rate, even with lv99, so there's almost no point in using Scourge, you just spam Resolution. Even then you become just a boring meathead DD.

    Apoc with both Catastrophe and Entropy gives you crazy sustain of both HP and MP. With the Haste aftermath you can wear a ton of -PDT and solo almost any 75 content.
    Doing damage is for WAR's, DRK is about soloing 75 content yo.....

  10. #90
    Player Frodnon's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Character
    Frod
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Rwolf View Post
    Back to Astral Conduit. I don't think it is inherently bad. I agree that eventually enough changes made it capable of massively getting crazy when well geared and supported.
    • The combination of multi attack, pet support/bubbles and speed of execution together is an issue with damage.
    • It also has zero reason to use for Wards.
    • It guarantees we're never going to see improvements to anything else like Wards effectiveness.


    I don't even know how it gets to these suggestions to nerf SMN as a whole or into the ground completely. Regardless of decision to nerf AC. The dev team certainly does need to work on better pauses and mechanics during fights. The dev team is too small excuse in discussion is getting old.

    Majority of fights are HP increase per player and time based. It is inherent that players will find the meta to be whatever is the fastest, safest, and easiest to execute reliably. You cannot fight that nature. Having fights being more about 100% kill it fast is going to always boil down to who does that best. Which means even if you burn SMN to ashes. The next meta will just have you bandwagon angry at the next job.

    As long as combat is focused on zerg objective, kill as fast and overwhelmingly as possible. It will never change, just shift. Might as well put a monthly campaign in where <insert job> is "OP" this month. Because that's all nerfing a job into submission is.

    Nerfing jobs to the point that it's rarely used and/or ineffective has never fixed this game. Distance didn't fix BST meta, mob nerfs did. GEO corrections didn't make it more likely to use BRD, BRD changes did and some ambuscade where NiTro lullaby was appealing.

    There is a middle ground somewhere.

    It does have a use for wards. 20% increase in buff duration.
    (0)

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