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  1. #21
    Player Jakuk's Avatar
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    Jakuk
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    Phoenix
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    PUP Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Urmom View Post
    Also let's not exaggerate. The dmg was good but not ridiculous. Plenty of other jobs do great and smn now destroys that while staying out of range itself
    While risking danger, and SMN I've stated before is ridiculous and will end up under the nerf hammer just as BST did when it got so powerful.

    And sorry it was ridiculous. You're basing people now on pre-BST nerf.
    (0)

  2. #22
    Player Nyarlko's Avatar
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    Character
    Nyarlko
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    Asura
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    BST Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiyo View Post
    Please don't defend the pre-nerf bst playstyle.
    The thing is, that is the exact same playstyle used now, with the addition of the master having to run in/out of aoe range to pop Ready/Reward on some fights. Literally nothing was changed that directly affected numerical damage output. All that the nerf did was make it much more glitchy and annoying to play, and emphasized the racial inequality for the job.
    Taru vs Galka: Taru has ~1y less range on JAs than a Galka will, due to player model size. Same as always most likely, but it is far more noticeable with the drastically reduced range now.

    I honestly wouldn't mind the Ready distance being so low IF it was exactly the same for all races AND they restored the distance to all the other JAs that got nerfed as collateral damage.
    (3)
    Last edited by Nyarlko; 12-18-2016 at 02:57 AM.

  3. #23
    Player Zeargi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakuk View Post
    While risking danger, and SMN I've stated before is ridiculous and will end up under the nerf hammer just as BST did when it got so powerful.

    And sorry it was ridiculous. You're basing people now on pre-BST nerf.
    Not likely, but don't you dare jinx SMN...

    SMN takes a lot of work to get those numbers as it is. More than likely the SMN has a complete Apogee set, the Nirvana, lots; if not maxed JP, all of the +BP DMG stuff. And even then, the major thing that will keep SMN back is the lack of AoE DMG. That is the reason that BST got nerfed so badly, The Grasshopper and it's destructive AoE power. While I feel that SE took the hammer too hard, as Reward's range should be put back to the way it was. Their choice of things is complete stupid at times. I've said before about the SMN AF Hands and the convert DMG to MP stat being dumb and useless. In that same vain, Charm and Tame are also useless at this point. BST will never use those abilities because of how the game is centered around BCNM and closed content. And 80% of the mobs added from Abyssea on can't even be charmed.
    (0)
    "What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets. But enough talk... Have at you!" Lord Dracula - [Castlevania:SotN]

  4. #24
    Player Jakuk's Avatar
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    Jakuk
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    Phoenix
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    PUP Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeargi View Post
    Not likely, but don't you dare jinx SMN...

    SMN takes a lot of work to get those numbers as it is. More than likely the SMN has a complete Apogee set, the Nirvana, lots; if not maxed JP, all of the +BP DMG stuff. And even then, the major thing that will keep SMN back is the lack of AoE DMG. That is the reason that BST got nerfed so badly, The Grasshopper and it's destructive AoE power. While I feel that SE took the hammer too hard, as Reward's range should be put back to the way it was. Their choice of things is complete stupid at times. I've said before about the SMN AF Hands and the convert DMG to MP stat being dumb and useless. In that same vain, Charm and Tame are also useless at this point. BST will never use those abilities because of how the game is centered around BCNM and closed content. And 80% of the mobs added from Abyssea on can't even be charmed.
    So did BST, Need near perfect augmented gear, or most jobs for that matter.

    The thing wrong with BST and now with SMN is the "Stay out or range safe, deal crazy DMG, win) mentality they use.

    If AoE was the problem they would have just nerfed the DMG on it, they didn't they nerfed the range so they NEEDED to be in danger.
    (0)
    Last edited by Jakuk; 12-19-2016 at 06:39 PM.

  5. #25
    Player Zeargi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakuk View Post
    So did BST, Need near perfect augmented gear, or most jobs for that matter.

    The thing wrong with BST and now with SMN is the "Stay out or range safe, deal crazy DMG, win) mentality they use.

    If AoE was the problem they would have just nerfed the DMG on it, they didn't they nerfed the range so they NEEDED to be in danger.

    I also played BST, and it was far easier to get that DMG. You would think they would have changed damage of it, but that grasshopper became the main staple of many bandwagoning people (It's still is today). BST don't have a magic skill tied to much of their abilities, and nothing SMN can, so far, do can lower their BP Timer beyond 21 Seconds. BST's Attack command every 10 seconds was crazy. And of course SMN is going to stay out of range and be safe, they're still tied with having the Worse DEF in the entire game. SMN also has far more checks to get through, The Prep cost for Avatars, the MP Cost for abilities, the Skill Raising required to have decent buffs and acc, the high amount of gear for BP DMG/Prep/BP Recast/MACC/ACC/Fast Cast, Avatar's HP being so low & no main way to heal certain pets outside of Dawn Mulsum. Won't get me wrong, BST played the same way as SMN for years on end, and it was dumb to change it out off the blue without the proper means for it to be prepared for that change with new JAs and JTs. But BST was definitely meant to be a DD class, it just needs to be compensated for that so it can work. There needs to be more Master/Pet shared gear. There needs to Job traits to help BST. The list can go on, but this AF Reforge is the least of BST problem at the moment.

    TL: DR - Leaves SMN alone, fix BST
    (0)
    "What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets. But enough talk... Have at you!" Lord Dracula - [Castlevania:SotN]

  6. #26
    Player Urmom's Avatar
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    Urmom
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    Shiva
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    GEO Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Jakuk View Post
    While risking danger, .

    And sorry it was ridiculous. You're basing people now on pre-BST nerf.
    Pup, smn, rng, cor, all nukers can deal good dmg without risking danger
    (5)

  7. #27
    Player Urmom's Avatar
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    May 2016
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    Character
    Urmom
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    Shiva
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    GEO Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeargi View Post
    I also played BST, and it was far easier to get that DMG. You would think they would have changed damage of it, but that grasshopper became the main staple of many bandwagoning people (It's still is today). BST don't have a magic skill tied to much of their abilities, and nothing SMN can, so far, do can lower their BP Timer beyond 21 Seconds. BST's Attack command every 10 seconds was crazy. And of course SMN is going to stay out of range and be safe, they're still tied with having the Worse DEF in the entire game. SMN also has far more checks to get through, The Prep cost for Avatars, the MP Cost for abilities, the Skill Raising required to have decent buffs and acc, the high amount of gear for BP DMG/Prep/BP Recast/MACC/ACC/Fast Cast, Avatar's HP being so low & no main way to heal certain pets outside of Dawn Mulsum. Won't get me wrong, BST played the same way as SMN for years on end, and it was dumb to change it out off the blue without the proper means for it to be prepared for that change with new JAs and JTs. But BST was definitely meant to be a DD class, it just needs to be compensated for that so it can work. There needs to be more Master/Pet shared gear. There needs to Job traits to help BST. The list can go on, but this AF Reforge is the least of BST problem at the moment.

    TL: DR - Leaves SMN alone, fix BST
    Easier yes. But not quite as crazy as made seem.

    Let's start with 21 sec vs 10. Yes bst can use ja more often assuming they were using single charge moves... they also do a lot less dmg (especially the magical) and have worse skillchain properties for the physical. But like that grasshopper you are fond of was 20 seconds to AoE. Though really grasshopper is mostly good for AoEing or run wild should be using other pets if not.

    Not sure what the def has to do with anything. Both jobs (and really a lot of jobs that aren't gearing for survival) are pretty squishy in range especially considering most the worst AoEs are magical/breath.

    I'll give you the little time it takes you to raise skill. As far as perp.... well bst had to have an idle dt set so that kind of equals out. But to really take it to the same level you do for smn you needed a lot of gearing to. You say smn needed bp dmg/prep/bp recast/macc/acc/fast cast bst needed acc/att/macc/mab/tp bonus/ready recast/reward potency/recast/dt/haste/da. Yes bst could bandwagon and barely get by with a lower gear threshold but what you are describing isn't a just getting by bandwagon smn. High end bst was just as much work as high end smn

    Healing avatars is really a trade off for the ability to resmning them immediately. Makes them worse at tanking but in terms of DDing it's a wash. Honestly I'd rather have a say 1 minute bestial loyalty than the ability to use reward.

    As far as the reforge af. What others seem to be arguing is that it doesn't have those shared master/pet stats that for some reason smn a job that isn't a DD and can stand back did get which makes little sense considering SE's stance on bst being a dd. Like if bst is supposed to be more of a dd why do they keep missing all these gear opportunities to make it so. Because pets are still strong enough that you aren't going to gimp your pets dmg in order to increase the masters so the only way to really make it happen is to give good pet and master stats
    (4)
    Last edited by Urmom; 12-20-2016 at 02:49 AM.

  8. #28
    Player Zeargi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urmom View Post
    Easier yes. But not quite as crazy as made seem.

    Let's start with 21 sec vs 10. Yes bst can use ja more often assuming they were using single charge moves... they also do a lot less dmg (especially the magical) and have worse skillchain properties for the physical. But like that grasshopper you are fond of was 20 seconds to AoE. Though really grasshopper is mostly good for AoEing or run wild should be using other pets if not.
    BST is still strong. The only thing that changed is the range in which you have to be to use it, making annoying as hell to play as. When SR was still a thing, people were still taking the nerf BST to do the fights. and your 20 sec thing still doesn't cost you anything but charges. A SMN is tied to the Timer, as well, as their MP Pool. We can't go balls to the wall all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urmom View Post
    Not sure what the def has to do with anything. Both jobs (and really a lot of jobs that aren't gearing for survival) are pretty squishy in range especially considering most the worst AoEs are magical/breath.
    DEF has everything to do about it. Both Magical and Physical. As a BST you are more likely to survive more auto attacks than I will. You wouldn't ask a BLM to stand close and cast, why would you expect a SMN to do it? Yes, BST job is heavily tied to your pet, but you can still melee and WS if you happen to loss a pet for a while. If a SMN tried to do that, it'd be comical at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urmom View Post
    I'll give you the little time it takes you to raise skill. As far as perp.... well bst had to have an idle dt set so that kind of equals out. But to really take it to the same level you do for smn you needed a lot of gearing to. You say smn needed bp dmg/prep/bp recast/macc/acc/fast cast bst needed acc/att/macc/mab/tp bonus/ready recast/reward potency/recast/dt/haste/da. Yes bst could bandwagon and barely get by with a lower gear threshold but what you are describing isn't a just getting by bandwagon smn. High end bst was just as much work as high end smn
    -DT doesn't even remotely count to that of Prep, because that's also applies to SMN as well as EVERY pet job. And while Avatars get the natual PDT-50%, their awful HP makes up for that. I was also being generous, but SMN also needs Favor Plus, Pet Haste, MAB, an now even more so TP Bonus, Blood Boon, MP+, SMN Magic+, Elemental Siphon+, and DA for pets as well. Almost every Avatar is classified as a BLM out side of Fenrir, Diabolos, Carbuncle, and Cait Sith. The 6 Celestial avatars are completely identical to one another which means Shiva doesn't get higher INT, Titan doesn't get higher DEF/VIT, they can't be effected by their own favor... None of that. They also inherit the JTs that a BLM would get, which means no native double attack, no triple attack, no TH, no counter. BST may not have the Magical DMG, but they have lots of things that set their pets apart. They have the animal weakness matrix, they have a few pets that fall into the PLD, MNK, THF, and DRK classes, they have pets that resist weapon type DMG. SMN gets two extremely crappy Light Avatars that have paper thin defense/crappy acc/awful evasion/pathetic attack, One wolf that get High attack, and Devil that has really good defense. We also get no piercing DMG past level 10.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urmom View Post
    Healing avatars is really a trade off for the ability to resmning them immediately. Makes them worse at tanking but in terms of DDing it's a wash. Honestly I'd rather have a say 1 minute bestial loyalty than the ability to use reward.

    As far as the reforge af. What others seem to be arguing is that it doesn't have those shared master/pet stats that for some reason smn a job that isn't a DD and can stand back did get which makes little sense considering SE's stance on bst being a dd. Like if bst is supposed to be more of a dd why do they keep missing all these gear opportunities to make it so. Because pets are still strong enough that you aren't going to gimp your pets dmg in order to increase the masters so the only way to really make it happen is to give good pet and master stats
    Which again comes back to the sources of the problem

    BST still works, but could be vastly improved. Either with giving missing Job Traits, gear that are for both pet/master, and re-tool merits and Job Abilities.
    (0)
    Last edited by Zeargi; 12-20-2016 at 09:13 AM.
    "What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets. But enough talk... Have at you!" Lord Dracula - [Castlevania:SotN]

  9. #29
    Player Urmom's Avatar
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    Urmom
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    Shiva
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    GEO Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeargi View Post
    BST is still strong. The only thing that changed is the range in which you have to be to use it, making annoying as hell to play as. When SR was still a thing, people were still taking the nerf BST to do the fights. and your 20 sec thing still doesn't cost you anything but charges. A SMN is tied to the Timer, as well, as their MP Pool. We can't go balls to the wall all the time.
    Didn't say it wasn't strong just there just that you can't really say omg bst can spam a move twice as much. It's a false comparison. Annoying is a bit of an understatement. Dangerous and sometimes deadly is more accurate. Yes bst only has a timer. Smn also has wards woot. That said the distance thing makes is bst can't go balls to the wall either anymore



    Quote Originally Posted by Zeargi View Post
    DEF has everything to do about it. Both Magical and Physical. As a BST you are more likely to survive more auto attacks than I will. You wouldn't ask a BLM to stand close and cast, why would you expect a SMN to do it? Yes, BST job is heavily tied to your pet, but you can still melee and WS if you happen to loss a pet for a while. If a SMN tried to do that, it'd be comical at best.
    Um what the heck does def have to do with magical? And lol what the heck does getting closer have to do with eating auto attacks? Anything that kills your pet is going to kill you 10 times over. And yes I would ask my blm to stand close to cast sometimes. Heck I might even ask my blm to tank as it has the potential to be the sturdiest job in the game. But really until recently you wouldn't have asked the bst to stand in range either. In fact you'd actually have the smn have to get in range on mid sized moves to bp until recently. You vastly overestimate what a little bit of defense will do for merely standing in range. At best bst will have a slight advantage on those small number of physical and fixed dmg AoEs that are strong but not designed to kill anyone not in full tank gear while smn will have an advantage in much more common AoE magical/breath due to it's greater amounts of mdb and meva and int



    Quote Originally Posted by Zeargi View Post
    -DT doesn't even remotely count to that of Prep, because that's also applies to SMN as well as EVERY pet job. And while Avatars get the natual PDT-50%, their awful HP makes up for that. I was also being generous, but SMN also needs Favor Plus, Pet Haste, MAB, an now even more so TP Bonus, Blood Boon, MP+, SMN Magic+, Elemental Siphon+, and DA for pets as well. Almost every Avatar is classified as a BLM out side of Fenrir, Diabolos, Carbuncle, and Cait Sith. The 6 Celestial avatars are completely identical to one another which means Shiva doesn't get higher INT, Titan doesn't get higher DEF/VIT, they can't be effected by their own favor... None of that. They also inherit the JTs that a BLM would get, which means no native double attack, no triple attack, no TH, no counter. BST may not have the Magical DMG, but they have lots of things that set their pets apart. They have the animal weakness matrix, they have a few pets that fall into the PLD, MNK, THF, and DRK classes, they have pets that resist weapon type DMG. SMN gets two extremely crappy Light Avatars that have paper thin defense/crappy acc/awful evasion/pathetic attack, One wolf that get High attack, and Devil that has really good defense. We also get no piercing DMG past level 10.
    Well alot of smns don't have pet dt because it's not as necessary. I was being generous as well and didn't include any sets that would benefit the master in anyway. Most top end bsts have various melee and mixed sets as well as their own dt and casting sets for /mage soloing. My point was both need a ton of sets to really do well. Though you are doubling up on some of those. Monster correlation is sometimes nice when it comes up... but it only comes up by chance since it's effects are so small and often reduced/non existent on nms that you'd almost never choose a jug based on that. Speaking of those dmg types and survivability you know there are iirc only 2-3 of jugs that get that and every one of them comes with an extreme weakness to another dmg type? And for magical resistance only a handful have any and it only covers around 4 elements total. Jugs can certainly handle physical better but avatar could handle elemental better though not sure how that part came about in response to that but I believe I've gone into that. But again it's a fair trade. Yes jugs can last longer but they also have to last longer because HQ pets are effectively on a 20 minute timer and NQs on a 4 minute timer. If they weren't able to survive better you'd end up with a lot of bst running around twiddling their thumbs half the time lol. Tell ya what I'll trade the survivability for having range back and putting bestial loyalty down to 1 minute. No high level piercing dmg sucks... but so does having all your magical moves cap out at a little over 12k fully geared. The 2 jobs are different but it's not all one sided there is give and take. Every advantage you list on one you can find a similar alternative advantage on the other. Though overall I'd say bst is in between the other 2 pet jobs in terms of pet survivability and dmg potential. Not counting drg because loldrg and well it's actually a half way decent dd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeargi View Post
    Which again comes back to the sources of the problem

    BST still works, but could be vastly improved. Either with giving missing Job Traits, gear that are for both pet/master, and re-tool merits and Job Abilities.
    Does it really work now though? It's never had the dmg potential of melees and without those adjustments you speak of it wont and well they continue to not do that. It lacks the safety of real ranged jobs now. Rng making a rather nice ranged resurgence though that's probably mostly due to the magic resistance/healing stuff. Heck the distance nerf even effected it's ability to AoE without you and/or your pet dying due to pet constantly out of ranging while you are meleeing the mobs. Endgame wise it mostly fills a niche of being slightly safer than melees at just out of small AoE range while dealing physical dmg. Though even then top of the line gear smn can do just as well. But even if they did give bst a bunch DD orient jt/jas/merits/better master/pet gear/a 119 -ready axe etc it might not really be enough partly due to using axes. Axes really got the short end of the 1hd ws adjustment. Heck even single wield wars use swd a bit. Though on aside katanas also kind of lost out there comparatively and could use a bit of a boost though migawari making them relevant again lol. There's also the problem every pet job has with meleeing... and that's buffs only really helping the master or the pet. Generally best support for one wont be the best for other... though geo with frailty helps both a bit lol. Going back to the bst correlation thing one thing they could do to an existing merit ja/jt to help is to ungimp killer instinct/effects. Namely on nms all the effects associated with both even when the families line up are reduced or non existent. Put it to full potency on all appropriate families. Another thing is the pets themselves. Right now with exception of the one on the rabbit all moves are directly offensive in nature. Give some of the jugs more of that families buff/debuff moves and hey you might have something there. Could even do crazy things like the master borrows jugs traits so you can change your traits and buffing and such for the situation kind of like blu does. Actually give us a reason to use more than a small handful of jugs
    (1)
    Last edited by Urmom; 12-20-2016 at 05:42 PM.

  10. #30
    Player Zeargi's Avatar
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    My point is simple that while the jobs are similar they are still vastly different and have different needs and strengths. Yes, my SMN and my pet will take elemental attacks better, much like a BST's will take physical better. And as you were so kindly saying, yes there are only a handful of jug pets, but you still have a variety to choose from. My problem comes when people say things: "X job is too OP, mine sucks... you should nerf it," rather than saying: "Hey, this job has [Insert something here], can we get something similar," or "My job could really use [Insert idea here]". BST and SMN have always been the bastard children of the game. BST would never get parties because of the EXP for charmed pets, and SMN wouldn't get them because of BP Timer and people wanting a gimped healer. It's gotten to the point now that we can finally have both of these classes join things.

    So rather than tear others down because you're bitter over this and that. Actually do something about it. THIS is why we have forums, it might not do something right away, but if enough people actually do something rather than just belittle one another, then things might get changed

    a while back I posted this:

    BST needs to get the following JT:
    Accuracy Bonus III: 30, 50, 75
    Max HP Boost IV: 35, 55, 75, 95
    Shield Defense Bonus: 85

    The Job Trait: Beast Healer needs to change to include: Copies 1 status enhancing effect per rank in merits to Pet When Using Reward

    Job Ability that needs to be Add:

    Empathy's Bond: Decreases DMG Taken By Master and Increases Accuracy for Pet and Master the closer they are together
    Level: 90
    Recast: 3m
    Effect Time: 45s~1m

    And 2 or more Shields designed for BST EXCLUSIVELY need to be added. They also need to change BST Shield ranks from E to C.


    And those were just off the top of my head. There's scores more changes that need to be done and can be done.

    You need to be asking that the Killer Traits get a boost so that they can be more useful than they are. You need to be asking to have Killer Instinct removed and replaced with a different Merit ability, and having that JA learned naturally like every other jobs "Circle" ability (Seeing how DRK, PLD, SAM, and DRG do.). You need to be asking for more variety of pets to use the affinity tree. You need to be asking for the better shared gear. Asking for more Job traits than what I've asked for to make the job function. Asking for certain JA to be looked at and adjusted. Instead of asking or wanting other jobs to be nerfed.

    Side Note: You also know you can use 'Stay' after your pet starts fighting and it'll prevent it from running off. Not perfect, but does help.
    (0)
    Last edited by Zeargi; 12-21-2016 at 12:41 AM.
    "What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets. But enough talk... Have at you!" Lord Dracula - [Castlevania:SotN]

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