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  1. #11
    Player Shiyo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    705
    Character
    Kitori
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 99
    Problem is geo has no weakness. The only time it has a weakness is when mobs are specifically created with "cannot be debuffed by geo debuffs" which is lol design in itself.
    Unmissable debuffs, undispellable buffs. lol
    Jobs with no weakness don't belong in a MMO.
    (3)

  2. #12
    Player Afania's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,445
    Character
    Afania
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by OmnysValefor View Post
    Too late to change it now, but Honor March should have probably been the 1200 gift, and not tied to yet another weapon bard has to try to get.

    This....I have a couple of friends who does not have aeonic group but has BRD mule. They'd insist to bring their none aeonic BRD mule to every HTBC or ambuscade so they earn double points, and everytime they bring BRD mule I just want to scream "Could you please get aeonic before insisting to bring BRD....you're lowering party DPS by occupying a pt slot"

    Honor march should be something accessible to every BRD tbh, like how Dunna's buff potency should be closer to Idris.
    (2)

  3. #13
    Player Olor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,134
    It was definitely a lot more balanced before entrust... three bubbles was the end of bard....
    (1)
    http://photobucket.com/gallery/http://s19.photobucket.com/user/soulchld4/media/Olorinus-Signature.jpg.html

  4. #14
    Player Vae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    244
    Character
    Vaelira
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiyo View Post
    Jobs with no weakness don't belong in a MMO.
    #NerfBLU Same reason.
    (2)

  5. #15
    Player Eckamus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    46
    Character
    Eckamus
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Something that would put BRD in a better spot, even if no new songs were added, would be to simply adjust the skill caps and have them scale to 900 combined skill. As it stands a level 99 BRD can cap all song skill caps naked without any job points, unless I'm mistaken. Since I don't think it was ever adjusted from level 75.

    Another option would be to actually make Instruments upgradable to iLvl 119 allowing the addition of bonuses like Song +, adding a special song for each instrument (not just Aeonic, etc... along those lines.
    (0)

  6. #16
    Player OmnysValefor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    1,186
    Another option would be to actually make Instruments upgradable to iLvl 119 allowing the addition of bonuses like Song +, adding a special song for each instrument (not just Aeonic, etc... along those lines.
    I understand where you're coming from but as a terrible bard (and never intend to have a strong one, too much gear), I think too much has already been asked of the high end bards.

    It's time to give bard something. Just give it to them.
    (3)

  7. #17
    Player VoiceMemo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    525
    Character
    Voicememo
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    SE could at least change brd to percentage calculations for each song, this would at least give us a chance in terms of boosting power to equal geo. Resistance can't really be helped since the nature of geo bubbles is unresisted aura.

    Bard with 3 song and gjallarhorn for minuet 5, 4 3 would be 99+93+85 for 277 attack. Dunna geo, non idris is 13.5% boost for indi and geo fury for 27% total. Most DD have at least 1000 attack(low end), which would be a 270 attack boost. If you add in idris geo, brd gets blown out of the water, as idris makes it 27% boost each for a 54% total which would be a 540 attack boost.

    The other thing se could do since Idris = mythic of geo, is boost brd mythic with some + song boost, rather than just duration. This would at least make it fair for a brd and geo with both at mythic level, granted brd probably would still likely have gjallarhorn and one of the harps to allow 3 songs.
    (0)
    Last edited by VoiceMemo; 10-30-2016 at 02:00 PM.

  8. #18
    Player Shiyo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    705
    Character
    Kitori
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 99
    Idris in general is just far, far, FAR too powerful of an item.
    (2)

  9. #19
    Player OmnysValefor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    1,186
    Quote Originally Posted by VoiceMemo View Post
    Bard with 3 song and gjallarhorn for minuet 5, 4 3 would be 99+93+85 for 277 attack. Dunna geo, non idris is 13.5% boost for indi and geo fury for 27% total. Most DD have at least 1000 attack(low end), which would be a 270 attack boost. If you add in idris geo, brd gets blown out of the water, as idris makes it 27% boost each for a 54% total which would be a 540 attack boost.
    Not to defend GEO but this isn't how GEO works at all.

    Dunna GEO's Fury (900 skill) grants 48.2% attack. You don't stack furies (Indi and Geo-Fury don't stack, nor do any same-pair of geo-spells), you use Fury and Frailty. Fraily grants -28.3% defense to any mob the GEO is actively on the hatelist for, within the bubble.

    ---------Attack---Monster Defense---Ratio
    Base----1000----1500-----------------1:1.5 (or .66:1)
    Dunna---1482----1076----------------1.37:1
    Idris-----1616----873------------------1.85:1

    There is an effective "attack/def ratio cap (pDIF)" in which stacking attack doesn't make your attacks any more potent. You might do a 15k ws againt a lv75 NM and find that fury and frailty don't make you ws any harder.

    To defend GEO. First clears (first several clears) of content are balanced around having a geomancer. Your first blm getting Amalric Body (an example I think most people are familar with) didn't make all of Escha Ru'Aun T3 a whole lot easier. As matter of fact, all of your BLMs getting this one piece still doesn't make the fight substantially easier.

    Past that, GEO does have mechanical weaknesses and mechanical strengths. So does Bard.

    Nerfing GEO nerfs everyone. It has a small but not negligible effect on high end-ls's who are farming aeonics but it makes every Kirin (first one especially, short supply of Stalwart's) harder and every WoC for a progressing LS that much harder. It makes everything you do harder. And if anyone's not bringing GEO as some sort of protest against its "overpowered" nature, you're only hurting yourself.

    This is not to say Bard doesn't need buffs (as many players believe it does, and so do I) but it is smarter to buff or overhaul bard than to nerf GEO.

    Last thing. Can you honestly say that GEO today is any more overpowered than Bard was in its heyday? Both of these jobs more than made up for the direct-damage people they're "replacing", that's the idea and the requirement, otherwise you wouldn't bring them.

    Edit: Yeah GEO's spells are different, but NMs are different today. At 75, many tanks were doing fine in little to no -DT gear (due to overall poor availability). Now it's simply a must.

    Soul Voiced Marches were extremely powerful back when Haste II didn't exist and gear-haste-capping was impractical or impossible and MP was a concern.
    (1)
    Last edited by OmnysValefor; 10-31-2016 at 02:00 AM.

  10. #20
    Player Fae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    76
    Character
    Flupplewolfe
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    SCH Lv 99
    When comparing GEO to BRD this is what the typical player does:
    BRD: can boost attack by static amount
    GEO: Can lower def and raise attack by high % amounts

    OMG GEO SO MUCH BETTER.

    The problem is the typical player isn't really looking at the big picture, and hates complicated ideas because they require them to think and consider many things at a time rather than have simple powerful ideas that are easy to repeat. This is a downfall of human nature, not just ffxi players, a lot of the power of BRD isn't in such simple comparisons.

    GEO has a limit on spells over BRD. Basically:
    - 1 Spell is empowered with GEO job abilities and geomancy+, up to 75% potency. In return the Buff cannot be moved and can take damage. On monsters that do not have a lot of AoE damage and with very good sets of DT and Luopan Regen, 75% potency - boost can be maintained full time (10 min cap on luopans and Blaze of Glory and Ecliptic are 10 min recasts).
    - 1 Spell is empowered with geomancy +, and the GEO must be in range to use it as it is an area effect around them.
    - 1 Spell can be entrusted, losing geomancy+ and given as an aura to a selected player. The recast on this JA is longer than the duration of the indi- spell meaning it can't be up full time.

    GEO spells are also lost on starting many fights, including all of Escha and UNMs. Meaning if fights are short, potency can not be maintained without going to get revitalizers all the time which isn't reasonable since they are short fights.

    Having your buffs immovable, reset, limited to less than 3, and your most powerful version taking damage are very, very big drawbacks but not talked about because GEO is so potent.

    For BRD to compete, it's TOTAL power has to equate to that of GEO's 2.5 spells. However when people are makign comparisons, they are comparing 2 songs to 2 GEO debuffs when they were never made or meant to be equal from a design perspective. Let us take a look at why:
    - BRD has up to 5 songs as buffs active on one person at a time. These songs can last over 11 minutes and are not reset for engagements and are not grounded to their location, or use auras.
    - BRD can give different people different buffs. This already on top of their higher song limits vs geo spell limits, pushes them even further into use.
    - BRD Debuffs are not included in any caps whatsoever, so you can basically always have access to them as long as they can land. BRD gets extremely high combined skill and thus magic accuracy.
    - BRD is without question, the best crowd control in the game, where as GEO has no AoE crowd control whatsoever natively.
    - BRD Buffs STACK with GEO buffs. Meaning if you did precision + torpor + entrust DEX and need more accuracy, adding a 2nd GEO isn't going to give you a lot of mileage that way. You could do 75% empowered Geo-Precision and Geo-Torpor and gain some attack defense boosts which is usually the way people tend to go because GEO is so ubiquitous. It is not however the way you should go if you want to max party slots.

    Take these facts along with the fact most people do not know how to use BRD to it's potential (suggesting you do Threnody II instead of bringing a 2nd GEO so you can do languor will make most people roll their eyes or get angry even though it's an extremely potent magic evasion debuff and INT songs are things too for magic acc/base damage boosts), and you get a very lopsided misinformed rhetoric, that is repeated, and repeated again and never actually examined.

    The detriments of GEO and the benefits of BRD would be more discussed if people were more informed and didn't shy from more complicated ideas and didn't directly compare 2 songs to everything a GEO can offer so often.

    The total number of songs a BRD can offer your party can be:
    - Minne x2, March x2, Scherzo on Tank (Geo can't offer a scherzo like spell, and haste for tanks is often forgotten even though things like how often you flash and reprisal recasts are very important)
    - Ballad x2, March x2, Scherzo on Healer (Recasts are important for a WHM as well, and while mana issues are far less these days extra MP allows you to be less conservative as a WHM)
    - March x2, Minuet x2 or Etude x2 or Madrigal x2 or Prelude x2, Scherzo on DD
    - March x2 or Ballad x2, Etude x2, Scherzo on Mages

    If you don't deem Scherzo as necessary for a fight you can also replace it with something else, but it's duration with CC is over 23 mins.

    Now let's combine that with debuffs:
    - Threnody II for up to 360 elemental evasion down, 180 without potency boosts
    - Elegy for potent 50% slow
    - Nocturne for potent addle effecct
    - Light Based extremely accurate dispel from finale

    The other mistake people make is comparing things like threnody II to Gambit/Rayke which will always increase damage, but threnody just like if magic acc is capped and you use langour or frazzle will not increase damage.

    GEO is used more than BRD, but one big reason for that is GEO can be very lazy and people are lazy. BRD to be fully effective has a LOT to do. Which most bards just... don't do. GEO on the other hand is infamous now for being a job you can cast 3 spells with JA on and afk for 10 mins on a lot of fights. Not that they SHOULD but it's simply something people do. Comparing all of above, BRD's additive power is very strong and very large. The one thing it can't bring to the table that GEO can do is lowering physical and magical defense so much. GEO becomes a powerhouse simply because of geo-malaise and geo-frailty being so strong. They also do not have to deal with resists to lower magic evasion like RDM or BRD does making them consistent. GEO is also very good for pet jobs, because BRD can not do a single thing to boost Pet damage, but through the use of powerful debuffs, Pet jobs are greatly benefited. Nothing in the game will boost damage as much as Geo-Frailty or Geo-Malaise, it can more than triple damage of either physical or magical damage, and geo-malaise especially is on a level far above what any other source can lower magic defense. It's those reasons GEO is used. In a DD setup it is actually optimal in most situations to bring a GEO for indi-fury, geo-frailty, and let the brd handle accuracy boosts, base attack boosts (which also helps fury) and marches and adding safety with scherzo.

    So going forward, I hope people will compare ALL of BRD to ALL of GEO at least, rather than comparing 2 songs to 2 GEO spells as is most common, but I won't hold my breath people hate complicated ideas or having to think of all of something at once. People are married to the idea of simplicity = truth, and while sometimes it is, in the complicated interconnected world of real life it usually just doesn't fly. If you compare the max contributions of stats to one stat a BRD or GEO could contribute, by design with it's ability to not also do other debuffs, not also buff other party members for different stats, and having to be grounded to a location and having their strongest spells subjected to dying by aoe damage then BRD should lose on a design basis because BRD has the potential to offer more than that comparison. Most of the story is missing when people compare BRD to GEO, and there's a very good reasons in the developer AMA SE said they don't do the same thing. BRD is optimized when a parties demands are varied. GEO is optimized when a parties demands are unified. Even in a typical Mana Burn setup, BRD can offer a lot, people just don't usually feel it is as necessary to have those boosts as it is to have the damage boosts from Geo-Malaise and hassle free magic evasion control due to no resists for magic evasion, and they are probably right. If the tank survives, the WHM doesn't go oom, and the mob dies, you didn't need a BRD and BRD can't offer the geo-malaise boost to damage. In DD parties however, BRD can be very crucial, in fact of all the DD wins on extremely high level NMs like t4 reisenjima or warder of courage a BRD is required simply because their buffs stack with GEO. On lower end content due to geo-frailty however, GEO becomes preferred.

    I feel if SE were to balance GEO and BRD they need to look at Geo-Frailty and Geo-Malaise, but to be careful as nerfing it would also nerf jobs that depend on it (BST, SMN, all mage setups, and to a much lesser degree all DD setups as there are options for potent def down that some DD can offer). I think otherwise, the amount of support additively along with their unique dispel and crowd control features make BRD and GEO pretty competitive other than the fact GEO can be much lazier to be effective which translates to being more useful because people are lazy. (A really good GEO should not be understated though, i.e. ones that land frazzle, backup heal, dispel, and on occasion contribute good dps).

    I'm against Buffs straight out, the game is already easy and dumbed down over the years enough from people constantly pushing for things to be made easier on them. If SE nerfed GEO though, it is so ubiquitous to EVERY party setup that exists it would severely change the balance of power of jobs as well as end game difficulty so they have to be very careful.
    (1)

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