BLU Balance

[Dale]

If blu wasn't so powerful, why does nearly EVERYONE play it?
.

Nearly everyone doesn't play it.

If you are seeing more Blue Mages than usual it's probably just because they are particularly useful in this month's ambuscade. It's not because they are suddenly so OP.

[Zetaking]

blu is the best magical aoe job bst is safer and best Melee cleaver

sch pup bst and nin are better(in this case safer) solo jobs on mid content

Blu is S class in low buff low man zerg content B class otherwise

jack of all trades means they can do all that at once, which they cant, i think you mean rdm there(btw with sequence rdm is beast up to 135 content sadly the tier 4 is to much on acc)

losing the haste on MG hurts the war or run i normal bring more than me, i can make the difference up in DW(tho at least the war would still have the def boost to cover berserk)

[Afania]

A note on those spreedsheets, they should never be used to compare jobs.

I generally agree that the fight in FFXI these days are a lot more dynamic compare with ages ago where optimal buffs are stagnant and everyone just spam their best WS at 1000 TP. That being said, we're having a DPS balance discussion here, if we don't have a baseline when it comes to DPS balance then everything would just be hearsay.

I've seen all sorts of claims(not you, but from many other people) to support their anti BLU adjustment POV from "DRK outparse BLU" "DRG outparse BLU" "RUN outparse BLU" to even "RDM outparse BLU", then proceed with "if you can't outparse BLU you suck". None of claims from those people include any context including gear set/buffs/targets etc etc. So how are we going to have an objective discussion regarding BLU's DPS ability if everything is just internet rumor and hearsay?

I propose spreadsheet comparison because I think people claiming "BLU suck at DPS" is going too far. 95% of BLU we play with aren't even maxed, considering the job is slightly more expensive to max out compare with WAR and DRK, I don't think it's fair to compare a dedicated DRK player with full set of HQ+ AG rag v.s bandwagon BLU with 1 REMA, NQ adhemar and low end herc augment, then proceed to claim BLU's versatility is justified for it's DPS because that bandwagon BLU parse terribly.

And that's what a lot of people doing in this entire BLU DPS discussion. There are very little facts, 95% of posts are just subjective opinions.(I'm not saying Saevel is biased though, I do think your analysis of BLU is correct)

I'm fine with people claiming spreadsheet isn't accurate, but please present other numerical evidences to support BLU's DPS hierarchy. It is fine to claim BLU being "behind" DRK, DRG, SAM etc, but how much? There's a huge difference between 3% behind and 25% behind too. Without knowing exactly how behind BLU is this job balance discussion can't really continue. If BLU is only 5% behind SAM, DRK, DRG then it's versatility isn't justified, if it's 20% behind then at least it's more balanced. And I highly doubt BLU is THAT behind in terms of DPS at all.

tl;dr: In terms of DPS, I do think hybrid job like BLU needs to be behind jobs like SAM, DRK DRG. But how behind? 3% or 5% behind isn't enough to justify BLU's versatility. Currently we don't have any accurate tool to know the real DPS hierarchy outside of personal experience and parse data with close friends, that's why I propose spreadsheet comparison.

[Stamos]

Like most cases Afania, it is player by player basis. How well geared they are for each situation, and how much attention they are paying.

[Jakuk]

"RDM outparse BLU"

Have they? I've only seen RDM mentioned when I was replying, and someone said RDM is a beast upto 135 (which is true, and probably SE's justification for the lack of gear for RDM)

[Fae]

blu is the best magical aoe job bst is safer and best Melee cleaver

sch pup bst and nin are better(in this case safer) solo jobs on mid content

Blu is S class in low buff low man zerg content B class otherwise

jack of all trades means they can do all that at once, which they cant, i think you mean rdm there(btw with sequence rdm is beast up to 135 content sadly the tier 4 is to much on acc)

losing the haste on MG hurts the war or run i normal bring more than me, i can make the difference up in DW(tho at least the war would still have the def boost to cover berserk)

Ignoring the fact that you give no support for any of your claims so your post is nothing other than a statement of opinion, my prior posts show that this clearly isn't the case. Take NIN for example, it does less damage, it can not self heal, and it totally relies on a RDM and BRD trust to not die to even have good recasts. On every factor but miga, which it's recast will be too long to be that useful if those trusts die or are disabled, and considering occultation actually gets more shadows than utsusemi san even if it is 50% blink rate, and that unlike NIN BLU has a lot of magical defenses as well there is no point that NIN solo's better than BLU. PUP and BST are godawful slow clears on the same stuff BLU can do in a timely fashion as referenced by my prior posts. SCH can be a solo beast, but often relies on it's powerful regens and damage over times to get the job done which is also often very slow. On the other hand, you have some BLU who have without trusts solo'd AA GK in Escha Sky. No kiting needed.

BLU is a hybrid job and changing loadouts on BLU is something that doesn't require a trip to the mog house and unless going into cleaving mode is rarely necessary to change anything anyway, even when being a top DD and tanking something as dangerous as albumen. Haste and DW are not the same, for a multitude of reasons which was already addressed earlier in the thread, outside of worse TP gain it also has no effect on spell recasts. Bringing BLU because they can diffusion MG and thus less support is needed for a short fight is part of the reason it is bandwagoning and should be addressed, and bringing two BLU and no tank so you need less support for even long fights and no tank is another reason it should be addressed, it creates a situation where bringing anything other than BLU becomes non optimal for many setups. BLU can do top tier DPS while having all the other advantages it has including enfeebles, aoe cleaving, they can setup or make any skillchain, they can long stun, they have a ton of survival and they have a suite of buffs that eclipse what some more support oriented jobs can even offer. All of it is clearly too much power on one job and why people gravitate towards it and that it's been bandwagoning since before skirmish II.

BLU wasn't just popular in this month's ambuscade but pretty much every single one. What was the strategy when the giant mega boss was setting everyones mp to zero? Blu with magic barrier. What is the answer to a frog that one shots a party? Blu subduction and kite. What is the answer to dangerous mobs that one shot people? BLU. What was the answer when various damage types are needed? BLU is great at all damage types but ranged, but especially slashing and blunt. What was the answer to the antlion adds? BLU aoe. And oh look it can tank and solo it too, gee wonder why. What was the answer when you are limited to 6 but the acc requirements are super high? Well BLU of course with the most melee accuracy.

It's not just that BLU is even so useful in so many situations either, it's that it does it better and faster with more consistent results than other jobs.

[Urthdigger]

I find that this game is more balanced than it was in the past.

Back in the ancient days of 75 cap - a lot of jobs just sucked and were awful to play. That is not the case today.

If you want to feel like you are dragging your group down just because you are not playing the most efficient job possible for any given situation - then perhaps it's time you re-assessed. As a previous poster alluded, games are about having fun. This isn't a job, and your goal should not be to accomplish something as quickly or efficiently as possible. It should be to have as much fun as possible.

I am open to legitimate criticisms that have some effect on gameplay. But when it comes to this argument that my job sucks and this other job is OP simply because so and so job can do it faster - I don't find that persuasive. That would require an exact balance to combat that kind of criticism - and that would in effect ruin this game.

Also: it's a myth that everyone is playing either Blue Mage or Black Mage to do endgame events. Who ever told you that doesn't know what they are talking about.

The only jobs I recall really sucking back at the 75 cap were BST and PUP. Most of the jobs weren't optimal, sure, but they weren't useless either.

As far as dragging the group down goes, you seem to be missing the point. This isn't about min/maxing and squeezing every second out of the kill time as you possibly can. This is about differences drastic enough to easily mean the difference between success or failure. If you'll excuse the hyperbole, imagine if you decided to show up to an endgame event wearing nothing but level 1 gear. When people object, you state that it's what's fun for you, and they shouldn't have a problem with it. And that likewise, you have no reason to feel bad for your performance. Now, the difference may not be QUITE as drastic as that, but the feeling is the same.

[OmnysValefor]

Have they? I've only seen RDM mentioned when I was replying, and someone said RDM is a beast upto 135 (which is true, and probably SE's justification for the lack of gear for RDM)

Not that I saw/see. Someone said RDM is a better soloer than BLU (which, outside of a gravity-kite--and that's pretty laughable, I can't see). It does have phalanx, which is situationally better than Barrier Tusk, and Barspells. I guess Fastcast for the recast on /nin spells would be nice but I still don't see RDM being a better soloer.

Ignoring the fact that you give no support for any of your claims so your post is nothing other than a statement of opinion, my prior posts show that this clearly isn't the case.

Here and in other threads, you demand examples (which is fair) and then refuse to acknowledge when that person, or any person, provides examples.

BLU wasn't just popular in this month's ambuscade but pretty much every single one. What was the strategy when the giant mega boss was setting everyones mp to zero? Blu with magic barrier. What is the answer to a frog that one shots a party? Blu subduction and kite. What is the answer to dangerous mobs that one shot people? BLU. What was the answer when various damage types are needed? BLU is great at all damage types but ranged, but especially slashing and blunt. What was the answer to the antlion adds? BLU aoe. And oh look it can tank and solo it too, gee wonder why. What was the answer when you are limited to 6 but the acc requirements are super high? Well BLU of course with the most melee accuracy.

Most people's answer to the giant boss was to try to take it out in one skillchain.

Most people's answer to dangerous mobs that one shot people is nuking strategy. If you're going melee, NIN, or /NIN. A second geo for defensive buffs also worked against Mow, as did a yagrush whm who was good on erasing the defense-down that made Mow so awful. Every Taurus/Demon I did that month, we brought one super low and then killed the other.

The answer to Roc was certainly not BLU, it was THF actually (had like a 25% weakness to piercing) Any pair of thieves with rudra's could skip at least one wave of adds, if not two and, with perfect timing, skip all three.

Unfortunately, that month, I was helping returning friends through ambuscade and our setup was PLD/GEO/WHM/BLM (yeah :/)/thf/thf. Birds died quickly enough, cockatrice took a minute, and my geo took care of the penguins (roundly geared thiefs could do a lot with aeolian edge on birds too). The undergeared BLM "helped". I have and love Blue mage but as it plays poorly with Rudra's Storm (the PLD can Requiescat), didn't see value in bringing it.

For Antlion, I tanked the adds with PLD/WAR and they died to our ajas from SCH skillchain strategy.

You claim to have cleared Rei HELMs but you're focused on pug-obsessed BLUs BLU-obsessed PUGs. Ignore them. For the sake a job that can do pretty good most the time, they're foregoing quicker methods.

[Fae]

Most people's answer to the giant boss was to try to take it out in one skillchain.

Wrong. Magic barrier was not only the first shared strat it was the most used and was only used for quite a while.

Most people's answer to dangerous mobs that one shot people is nuking strategy. If you're going melee, NIN, or /NIN. A second geo for defensive buffs also worked against Mow, as did a yagrush whm who was good on erasing the defense-down that made Mow so awful. Every Taurus/Demon I did that month, we brought one super low and then killed the other.

Wrong, BLU DD was very common and again, the first shared win and often most used. I never once went a nuking setup the entire month.

The answer to Roc was certainly not BLU, it was THF actually (had like a 25% weakness to piercing) Any pair of thieves with rudra's could skip at least one wave of adds, if not two and, with perfect timing, skip all three.

Unfortunately, that month, I was helping returning friends through ambuscade and our setup was PLD/GEO/WHM/BLM (yeah :/)/thf/thf. Birds died quickly enough, cockatrice took a minute, and my geo took care of the penguins (roundly geared thiefs could do a lot with aeolian edge on birds too). The undergeared BLM "helped". I have and love Blue mage but as it plays poorly with Rudra's Storm (the PLD can Requiescat), didn't see value in bringing it.

For a limited portion of the population that was true, but BLU was still shouted and asked for if you didn't happen to have 4 DNC / THF to make that setup work because BLU can deal with all the adds: magical cleave the magic weak, club the roc, and slashing damage the colibri. While stacked piercing was very good, BLU was the best DD slot for all but the main NM and most people couldn't achieve the kill in less than 30 seconds strategy, so we have BLU being used for a fight designed for light armor piercing jobs.

For Antlion, I tanked the adds with PLD/WAR and they died to our ajas from SCH skillchain strategy.

Then you could've solo'd in on VD with BLU, and probably in less time.

You claim to have cleared Rei HELMs but you're focused on pug-obsessed BLUs BLU-obsessed PUGs. Ignore them. For the sake a job that can do pretty good most the time, they're foregoing quicker methods.

I've stated and gave example for all levels of play, in detail, you're just ignoring what you don't want to hear. For some ambus you can give counter examples but they are hardly in context and misleading as a result. 1/22 is 4.5% which is the fair market share of job distribution, the lowest BLU population is currently given as 13% but I've usually seen closer to 20% or more of people on BLU for these and other reasons. The more you deny it the more clear it is that BLU is too strong and overused due to it's strength especially since you purposefully leave out context because you know it defeats your argument in the first place.

[OmnysValefor]

Piercing was far and away the fastest kill on Roc for even moderately geared thieves. Finding such thieves wasn't hard. I know, I put one together that much for a bit of versatility (and then my friends came back and I lived on GEO the rest of the month).

Some groups were leveraging Angon and Tomahawk on RoC as well. Not any group I was in, because I didn't know any good warriors (because everything else at the time was nuke, nuke nuke.).

Edit: I went with a few strats on Antlion (melee killing adds, focusing the boss) but I don't see a BLU and trusts taking the boss down faster than a group of humans with a GEO. The gravity and knockaround (as well as a blind, I think?) were annoying for melee and the the SCH strat worked absurdly fast. Antlion is the only one I took an MB strategy to.

I never took nukers to taurus/demon, sorry if that was unclear (I do see how my phrasing was confusing.). I've heard it worked but I tested some GEO nukes against it, even bursted, and wasn't impressed.

I'm not denying it out of some bias to the job. I'm denying it because there are a lot of people coming into this thread saying things they can't back up (on both sides), using weak defenses (on both sides, things like "BLU can do everything at once"-it can't and "BLU makes Bard obselete"-- it doesn't VS "I had to learn spells!" and "My job requires one-two more gear sets than most melee") and a few people saying things of actual truth (on both sides. Afania has done pretty good).

I don't "leave out context" either. I name the fight I'm talking about and what I used. You don't frame things with context because your claim is that everyone is taking 3 or 4 BLUs to everything.

I talked about Gormberry earlier, a fight I was doing as I was typing, and explained exactly what I was doing, what I gave up, and why I made those choices.