Re-balancing jobs in FFXI

[Vae]

There's like one person in this entire discussion mentioned the word nerf. Career BLU out there needs to chill.

Exactly how do you want to "Nerf" BLM anyways? Make it get hit by aoe like BSTs? It's used in endgame content because it's the only job that can nuke. By comparison it's not OP when comparing with jobs in the same class because it has no one else to compare with.

Well, BLM is pretty much unkillable, (mana wall), untargetable (Mburst creates essentially 0 enmity), has no mp issues (mrkyr gives 1000 mp), death and other bursts do (99,999 damage). Debuffs never affect BLM.

It's not rocket science to see that's imbalanced. I mean jeez...

It's gotten a little better on the middle end with evasion change, but faaaaaar from balance. Topend is still nothing but death bursts.

Geo's undispellable buffs, and unresistable debuffs, means ALL mobs are based on having a GEO, that's kinda unfair.

SCH is the (was the) only way skillchains are being made.

All bullshit and opinions aside, you can see there's a pretty obvious flaw in the design.

[Shyles]

You're putting waaaaaaay too much stock into spreadsheeting. Like I said before, a spreadsheet is NOT a reliable indicator of DPS. They're best used for planning gearsets. There are too many factors that they don't take into account. You're not going to find things like skillchain damage or skillchain bonuses on them for example. They're not going to show how certain jobs or party comps are stronger with or without Inundation. They're not going to show whether a job is self-skillchaining or not. They're also not going to have accurate enemy stat values for endgame content on them like VIT or AGI, so you can throw pDIF out the window. They're also not going to show whether someone is maximizing their JA and spell usage, or just using them whenever and potentially wasting auto-attack rounds.

If you want useful spreadsheets, you're have to update it yourself by adding in the items you use to the equipment lists, then just use the spreadsheet to compare the damage potentials of your new gear augments. If you're waiting on someone out there to update every single spreadsheet to your satisfaction before you acknowledge "proof" of the possibility that another job could beat a BLU in damage output, then you're going to be waiting a looooooong time.

Or you could just make your observations by what you see in-game parses like everyone else. Either way though, when someone on a forum says "my <insert job> out-damages a blue mage all the time" that is just as much proof as it is when someone else says "No, <insert job> cannot out-damage a BLU". You don't have to write someone off as making unproven claims either way because it's all theoretical until you see it yourself. The proof is in the pudding. If you want parse screenshots, you can find plenty of them in the job forums at FFXIAH.

[Shyles]

Sorry Vae, I got caught up in the BLU discussion but I wanted to say I agree with you. Physical DD vs. Magic DD is the real problem. I've been pretty vocal about Immanence. The problem is, I'm not really sure what would fix it, if it could be fixed at this point.

When it comes down to melee damage discussion, we're really talking about content lvl 135 and below. Outside of a few less conventional LS strategies or specific NM characteristics like AAGK, it's nearly impractical to use melee for CL 140+ when it's far simpler to just use Immanence comps. The only melee jobs I've ever seen or heard of used in the 140+ range were either BLU, DNC, or NIN probably because of the accuracy requirements alone.

What I would love is for accuracy to just be super de-emphasized. Like a flat acc requirement for content 119+ so that melee players could worry more about gearing for damage instead of hit rate. Like a flat 1100~1200 acc cap lol. Or what about giving melee a 100% hit rate like elemental spells, but make accuracy and evasion functions of damage? Magic damage never misses, so if a scholar can still skillchain with a floored 0 damage spell, why can't anyone else?

I don't know. I just think they need to do something drastic, because things are drastically imbalanced between melee and magic right now.

[Vashkoda]

It's been brought up before, but the overall reason no one brings melee to CL 140+ fights is because they need support in terms of acc, att, AND damage reduction. BLU can self-buff and heal and set acc/att traits, so they don't need as much help. And that means they don't need babysitting, and that means you can get away with bringing fewer players. And bringing fewer players is the only way you can keep the NMs from becoming too strong to beat (not to mention the incentive to keep the number of people lotting on pool drops low).

Mages are the one mechanic players have chosen to abuse to bypass all that. But if you nerf mages, players will just pick the next best thing, be it rng, blu, bsts in dt gear, or whatever; you will always have a group of jobs left out in the cold. I think the crux of what people are currently complaining about is *just how hard* it is to try to compensate for bringing melee to these events, relative to how easy it is with mages. Yet the truth is that it doesn't matter what the devs end up doing to help the dd's, because they will ALWAYS need support. If they didn't, then all the support jobs would be out in the cold. If they made it so all the dds could survive anything the NMs dished out, then the tanks would be out of a job. The way the game is now, at least mage jobs, support jobs (granted, mostly cor and geo), healers and tanks still have a role. Yes, melee jobs got shafted. The unfortunate reality is that "someone has to".

The only way things will change is to alter the way these high level fights are set up to be a challenge. In other words, remove the time limits so melee dds can have their whiff fests and get reraised all day (sure, mages will roll their eyes at the inefficiency, but at least dds can feel semi-useful). Remove the NM boosts from bringing too many players (that way it doesn't matter if most of the alliance ends up being support to keep the few melee dds alive and buffed; again, inefficient, but at least melee jobs can participate). Of course, these changes come at the cost of removing the actual 'challenge' from end game content. Now it's no longer an accomplishment to get past these NMs, because if you can beat it with melee, you could probably have beat it even easier with mages; rather it becomes just 'something to do'. And that means more players will clear the highest content available and quit. And obviously, the devs don't like that.

Yet I think that's the only way to make melee jobs at least get to participate in HQ endgame again. Otherwise... I guess they'll always have ambuscade as a place to show off their RMEA's.

[Diavolo]

The only way things will change is to alter the way these high level fights are set up to be a challenge. In other words, remove the time limits so melee dds can have their whiff fests and get reraised all day (sure, mages will roll their eyes at the inefficiency, but at least dds can feel semi-useful). Remove the NM boosts from bringing too many players (that way it doesn't matter if most of the alliance ends up being support to keep the few melee dds alive and buffed; again, inefficient, but at least melee jobs can participate). Of course, these changes come at the cost of removing the actual 'challenge' from end game content. Now it's no longer an accomplishment to get past these NMs, because if you can beat it with melee, you could probably have beat it even easier with mages; rather it becomes just 'something to do'. And that means more players will clear the highest content available and quit. And obviously, the devs don't like that.

The bolded part plays an important role in any attempt to balance the end game scene. HP scaling had good intentions behind it, which was to make fights easier for smaller groups of players at a time where server populations had made it difficult for most to find help, but "The road to hell..." and all that. As I've said elsewhere, along with a host of other issues this one could have been fixed by server merges so the population numbers never got to this sorry state, but alas...

An Escha NM's stats stops scaling down at 3 players if I'm not mistaken, so the dev team saw fit to ensure these fights didn't become too easy, but they didn't extend that line of thinking when it came to scaling them up. They could create a hard cap at which point the NMs stop scaling up, something equivalent to where the NMs would be with 12 to 15 players maybe. That change by itself won't make things much easier for melee, but it would provide incentive for linkshells (and the odd pickup group) to aim high again and be open to a little more experimentation, to focus on bringing full alliances to fights again since it would be making things easier instead of more difficult.

There's really only Escha and Ambuscade left at end game, you might even throw Master Trials, UNM and HTBF in there if you're feeling generous. Given how much time Ambuscade and the other non-Escha events take from us every month, and how much more inviting they are to melee classes, maybe the dev team's view of it all in the grand scheme of things was the same many of us took during the 75 cap days: level a new job and make yourself more useful.

[Shyles]

but they didn't extend that line of thinking when it came to scaling them up.

I was always under the impression that the HP-scaling was balanced at 18-person alliances, then scaled down. At least that was how it was during Delve.

Has there ever been an official confirmation that they started balancing it based on 6-person parties instead?

[Vashkoda]

I was always under the impression that the HP-scaling was balanced at 18-person alliances, then scaled down. At least that was how it was during Delve.

Has there ever been an official confirmation that they started balancing it based on 6-person parties instead?

According to this post from Camate back in 2014, you're correct (bolded for relevant part):

Greetings!

The below Delve adjustment that took place in the February version update will also be applied to the new Delve content that will be implemented in the March version update.

• The HP of NMs appearing in fractures now varies based on the number of party members.
  The values remain the same for parties of eighteen players.

However, this was regarding delve, which was already beatable with 18 players, as long as they were decently geared and had at least some knowledge of winning strategies and NM weaknesses. Adjusting it to be beatable with 6 players was essentially just dumbing it down.

However, all high tier NMs added afterwards came with hp scaling in effect from the beginning. There was no trial period where alliances could try out the fight without penalties. They also came at a time when server populations were in decline and 6-man playstyle was the norm. Therefore, I can totally see them buffing all subsequent NMs with 6-man parties as the baseline, and scaling up from there.

[Afania]

You're putting waaaaaaay too much stock into spreadsheeting. Like I said before, a spreadsheet is NOT a reliable indicator of DPS. They're best used for planning gearsets. There are too many factors that they don't take into account. You're not going to find things like skillchain damage or skillchain bonuses on them for example.

I'm not sure you either don't read what I wrote or have this biased opinion toward FFXI DPS math.

Like what I wrote earlier, you can calculate SC dmg from spreadsheet manually, since they provide WS avg and WS cycle time. You don't need spreadsheet to hand you the result of every single facet of DPS calculation, the result of the number can be calculated with math.

The way to use spreadsheet, isn't just sit there wait for the sheet to hand out every information. Some of the calculation has to be done manually.

As much as you dismiss the legibility of FFXI DPS math, do you have alternative solution then? Since FFXI DPS math seems to be complete garbage to you that has no value in DPS discussions, how else do you want people to discuss DPS hierarchy?

Every single FFXI DPS discussion on forums has been based on math and theory craft for many, many years. None of the legit FFXI DPS discussion in community has ever based on real life factors such as stun/knockback/luck/player skill etc. I don't know what's the point to tell people "it's not legit to discuss DPS math with spreadsheet" when that's how the community discuss DPS for years.

If you have better alternative way to discuss DPS, please provide them. If not then math, spreadsheet and theorycraft is still the more reliable way to calculate DPS hierarchy.

If you want useful spreadsheets, you're have to update it yourself by adding in the items you use to the equipment lists, then just use the spreadsheet to compare the damage potentials of your new gear augments. If you're waiting on someone out there to update every single spreadsheet to your satisfaction before you acknowledge "proof" of the possibility that another job could beat a BLU in damage output, then you're going to be waiting a looooooong time.

You don't seem to understand, my entire argument of spreadsheet isn't "demanding" someone to update it. I only expressed disagreement toward people state X DPS > Y as an universal fact, while often not considering the party DPS.

Or you could just make your observations by what you see in-game parses like everyone else. Either way though, when someone on a forum says "my <insert job> out-damages a blue mage all the time" that is just as much proof as it is when someone else says "No, <insert job> cannot out-damage a BLU". You don't have to write someone off as making unproven claims either way because it's all theoretical until you see it yourself. The proof is in the pudding. If you want parse screenshots, you can find plenty of them in the job forums at FFXIAH.

I'm not dismissing people's opinion when they said they outparse BLU. My original point was every single "I outparse BLU" argument that I see didn't consider party DPS as a whole. Their DRK, or WAR, made the pt used slightly different buffs from double BLU setup to push their DPS closer to DPS ceiling, plus they didn't parse/post SC DPS.

I simply spotted logical fallacy in "I outparse BLU thus my DPS job > BLU"claim thus pointing it out.

[Afania]

death and other bursts do (99,999 damage). Debuffs never affect BLM.

I love how everyone and their mother keep yelling "death is OP because it does 99999 dmg" when in fact it does 99999 dmg every 36 sec needing someone else spending 20 sec to start a skill chain, and run out of gems after a few charges....V.S melee spams 25k WS every 5 sec and every WS SC with each other for additional DPS.

What's keeping people using melee on high end content isn't because death do 99999 dmg btw, it's because endgame content favors DPS that can DD outside of AoE, or DPS that doesn't need massive evasion buffs so BLM gets picked. It's not because BLM being some kind of god tier DPS. Melee has higher DPS ceiling because they WS way faster than BLM MB, BLM just needs less evasion buffs and doesn't get hit by AoE.

If you ever parse BLM's DPS instead of just eyeballing the MB dmg, or time certain NM kill speed with BLM setup v.s other jobs, you'd know that BLM DPS isn't on top. I have parsed WoC runs against BLMs, or timed certain NM kill speed such as Neak and pakecet using BLM setup v.s none BLM setup, BLM setup is pretty much always kill slower or parse lower, even if their gears are good enough to do 99999 dmg per MB.

[Vae]

It's got nothing to do with DPS.

It's that the system is currently broken. BLM, like BLU is ALL up sides, and no downsides.

Balance is not based upon DPS. Balance is based on risk:reward. positive:negative. BLM has no negatives. GEO has no negatives. BLU has no negatives. "all" melee have negatives.

BLM strats require literally zero effort. While melee zergs require *almost* zero effort, burst strats are broken easy.