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  1. #1
    Player Rooj's Avatar
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    Jun 2012
    Posts
    128

    Enemy Debuffs In Current Endgame

    Thankfully we are seeing some changes to endgame content to make meleeing a bit less stressful. However, I still see many complaints about the debuffs that enemies use so I thought I would provide a little advice.

    The example I'm mostly going to reference is one that actually happened just this evening. Me and a few LSmates have been throwing our faces @ Golden Kist the past few days, as it's the last T1 kill we needed. He's universally accepted as the hardest (read: most annoying) Reisenjima T1 NM. If you've never fought him, you'll quickly understand this global opinion once you do. Keep in mind here, my LS is extremely anti-bring-only-the-most-useful-jobs, and playing the job you want to play, no matter what job that is, is praised. We got our Golden Kist kill tonight, and it was probably the most epic thing I've done in the game in a long long time. Wish I had recorded it. Anyway, we went tonight and trioed him. Myself as RDM/NIN, and my friends a SMN and COR. The Trusts almost always die very early in the fight. Even if they don't die at the start, they absolutely will not live through Manafont which happens many times throughout the fight. So we trioed this without trusts. It was a super fun experience.

    Okay okay anyway enough bragging, that's not why I'm here. My point is, I use my Barelement and Barstatus spells religiously. They are very important to me. I'm not sure how widely known this fact is, but Barelement spells actually also help protect you from status ailments. In regards to Golden Kist, I was using Barpoison and Barwater since poison is of the water element. Barthunder would probably help against his AOE Stun as well. However, ever since the Staunch Tathlum came out, I've been testing wearing it full time.

    And I love it. All of my other ammo/ranged items are now in storage. I mean, how much does 1% triple attack or 10 accuracy or whatever matter, when you're slowed, paralyzed, amnesiaed, or whatever? There's no way the other melee is going to out damage me using his regular ammo while he's debuffed. Ammo stats aren't that spectacular to begin with. So I've noticed when I do content and see a Paralyga or Silencega come out, I watch as everyone else gets debuffs and I resist them quite frequently.

    Back on the subject of Golden Kist, his Death Trap move is an AOE Stun+Poison. The poison ticks for 200 so it needs be dealt with promptly. A Remedy works of course, but you're stunned (the internets say the stun lasts for up to 20 seconds but mine never seemed to last more than like 10 I think?) so it's going to hurt some either way. After the kill tonight, I asked my friends how often Death Trap gave them poison, and they said 100%.

    Well, I'm here to announce that tonight, during our win, Death Trap poisoned me a total of zero times. ZERO! He was usually poisoning me once per attempt, but it never landed once on our final attempt. Not once.

    So here's my thoughts on this whole enemy debuff thing. Don't be afraid to sacrifice a little DPS for utility. It can be a game changer, and it's beyond worth it. There are tons of items in the game that provide resistances to various status effects and the results I've had from using the new tathlum make me want to experiment with them.

    That said, I do believe that the degree of enemy debuffs could be made a little bit easier on the community. For example, Traits could possibly become a little better. I've also thought it would be neat if those Traits were improved via our job specific equipment like Artifact or Empyrean. You never really see any Resists on any of our normal equipment, it's always a separate piece with probably no other stats so it never gets used. To be fair though, most of the Resist gear goes in accessory type slots so they make less of an impact on your overall performance. I've seen others suggest SE give RDM group Barspells, but I feel that could be a little overpowered. I suppose I could see since RDM is supposed to be the king of debuffs them giving us group Barstatus spells, but not Barelement.

    If you have any other ideas or suggestions, and especially advice, feel free to post it here. However, please refrain from imposing the argument about this problem being solved by not bringing melees to content and only using mages - it's been discussed in many threads on many different forums already. Thanks.
    (2)

  2. #2
    Player Zeldar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    328
    Character
    Zeldar
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Rooj I love most of your posts and your way of thinking/playing this game. The problem with your suggestion is not its validity. The problem with your suggestion is that nobody on these forums will try it. They don't want fixes that are already available . They don't want to sacrifice ANYTHING. They want SE to take away debuffs all together, or at the most make a mob debuff them once per fight. They want SE to make the game easier for them. Yes, I'm a bit jaded, but this community has made me that way.
    (0)

  3. #3
    Player Castanica's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    320
    Character
    Jacert
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 75
    Honestly the biggest mistake they ever made was allowing scholar to skillchain, that was so incredibly silly.
    (2)

  4. #4
    Player Zeldar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    328
    Character
    Zeldar
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Not this SCH sc crap again. You started another thread entirely about that, so can you keep the argument there please?
    (1)

  5. #5
    Player Shyles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    68
    Character
    Shyles
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    PUP Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeldar View Post
    Not this SCH sc crap again. You started another thread entirely about that, so can you keep the argument there please?
    You're really the only one arguing against it. It's no secret that it's broken.
    (1)

  6. #6
    Player Zeldar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    328
    Character
    Zeldar
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    The only 1 out of what, five? Put 1 intelligent person in a room with four retards and the one guys will say steak is better for you, while the retards will say Doritos are better for you "cuz dey tase gud." The others are smarter than I am and devote their time to playing the game instead of wasting it with you bull-headed idiots. Perhaps I need to learn from them. And yes, I do realize I'm a jackass and that I'll probably get forum banned for this. I'm beyond the point of caring anymore.
    (0)

  7. #7
    Player Castanica's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    320
    Character
    Jacert
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 75
    Melee making a skillchain feeds the monster TP, this can lead to all manner of nonense.
    Melee takes damage from monster and needs a healer.
    Melee need to be babysat from all debuffs etc
    Melee can miss.

    Scholar needs no healer, scholar feeds very little TP, is out of range of debuffs and attacks. Also they can't miss.

    Who would take a melee if they can get a scholar on serious mobs?

    Back in the day I was asked to level sam in order to setup skillchains for Nidhogg, Tiamat, sandworm etc You know what I would of 100% been asked to level if this system was in place back then? You know how many melee would of been in my hnmls if a scholar could of setup skillchains?

    Everything in this game usually has a plus and a negative, for scholar this is not there. It's all positives.

    What I would of done with scholar is make it so that using a scholar to skillchain makes the monster take 20% less damage from the resulting magic bursts, that mean you do less damage but you have an easier fight. Positive and a negative.
    (2)
    Last edited by Castanica; 08-07-2016 at 12:08 AM.

  8. #8
    Player OmnysValefor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    1,186
    I see no reason that Immanence was brought up here while simultaneously having an active thread but yeah it's a pretty broken ability.

    There's no reason to call people names.

    ---

    Rooj, I know this isn't the takeaway that you wanted someone to take from this, but you've been here for a few months telling everyone The Game Is Fine, and just announced you just finished Reisenjima Tier 1.

    I do wholeheartedly agree with playing defensively more often than most people do (It's the paladin in me, I guess). I've said it before but a live 6-hit build will outdps a dead 4-hit build. There are fights were you can zerg, fights where you can play semi-cautiously (maybe you don't get to ride Berserk), fights where you swap to -dt gear for certain spells/periods, and the occasional fight where you might want to sit in some -PDT/DT gear. Maybe the usefulness of this will change with the change to AoEs.

    Some jobs, like BLM, I can't understand why more people don't fulltime -dt gear in certain slots while not casting. If you can't get refresh in the slot, there's no justification for not wearing -dt/-pdt. You should also have a set that sacrifices everything to cap pdt/mdt (while not casting) because sometimes that's what the fight calls for. I know BLMs who have defending ring and never use it on BLM.

    Yeah, most the time when we bar against a status, we bar against the matching element (baramnesra/barfira, barpara/barblizzara) for the reasons you mentioned, however sometimes its more useful for the bars to contrast, when the NM's main element and main status ailment conflict.
    (2)

  9. #9
    Player Zeldar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    328
    Character
    Zeldar
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    A two-stage skillchain (created by two Weapon Skills) will result in a 160% increase in magic damage on the magic burst.
    All stages beyond that will result in an additional 10% damage increase on magic bursted spells (a three-stage skillchain will yield a 170% damage increase, four-stage will yield a 180% damage increase, etc.).

    There you go. You asked and they provided.....a long time ago! Not to mention that a multi-stage skillchain allows for multiple spots throughout the process for a mage to burst. As I stated on the other discussion, in a 3 part SC I can burst 3-4 times, where on a SCH sc I can only burst twice.

    And the negatives for SCH sc: A lot less damage. Negligible if the mages are killing it in 1 volley of bursts, sure. There are also plenty of mobs that either negate (hydras), absorb (tons of different mobs), avoid (any mob with shadows) or are impacted in others ways by magic damage. Some mobs rage when you hit them with a certain element. You said its all positive. Well here are some negatives. They can be overcome in certain ways, but so can the negatives for DDs.
    (0)

  10. #10
    Player Seriha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    979
    Character
    Kalsena
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Can't really disagree with debuff spam being an issue for more melee-oriented characters. Received damage is also a thing, but I guess we'll wait and see how they feel about the current tweaks in Ambuscade before applying them globally.

    Otherwise, there are a few things that could happen...

    Mob End:
    - Diminish the accuracy of a debuff based on the potential number of targets it would hit.
    - Add cooldowns to select TP moves so they can't be used in rapid succession.
    - Revisit Subtle Blow and/or melee TP feed.

    Player End:
    - Make all status cures AoE by default.
    - When cured of a debuff, gain a temporary resistance to its effect that diminishes over time.
    - Improve the effect of elemental and status resistances.
    - Holy Waters always remove doom/curse/zombie.
    - Remedies adjusted to remove everything and possibly stack to 99.
    - Add more resistance friendly gear or a means to augment existing items without sacrificing current values.
    - Add more ways to better control a mob's TP gain (ex: Plague) and hinder their potency/ready time (Addle for TP moves).

    Otherwise, some of the other factors to the anti-melee status was the bonkers evasion of high level content and the general trivialization of BRD and COR in the wake of GEO. Tweaking evasion ratings like they did with this patch is a step in the right direction, but I'd argue the content isn't terribly entry level friendly with the earlier phases of progression largely being "done" by other vets with little incentive to backtrack. Of course, this segues into how solo friendly things should be, which not everyone is keen on.
    (3)

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