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  1. #1
    Player Shyles's Avatar
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    Oct 2015
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    68
    Character
    Shyles
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    PUP Lv 99

    Immanence Balance Discussion

    What are some of your thoughts on balancing Immanence?

    Immanence has been a topic of discussion for a a while now since it is a job ability that has all but replaced the need for melee/ranged physical damage in today's metagame. It really deserves it's own thread. Scholars are the go-to skillchainers now, which is just bizarre to me. From what I have seen, most people seem to agree on this. But what is a viable solution? I wanted to open this up for discussion to see if we can find some fair ways to de-emphasize Immanence, and re-emphasize Melee as the prime skillchainers in end-game battles.

    First, as much as I would love for Immanence to die in a fire, I don't think it would be fair to Scholars to completely remove it, since it can be useful for soloing, but I think I have another idea.. What if the damage bonus for Magic bursts are recalculated?

    Currently, the damage bonus on Magic Bursts is 100% based on how many steps are used when performing a skillchain!!

    Neither the skillchain's damage nor the level of it's skillchain property have any bearing on the Magic Burst damage at all. Only the number of steps in the skillchain matter. And it's extremely front-loaded too.

    A 2-step skillchain gives a flat 160% bonus to magic burst damage, and each additional step performed adds another 10% bonus. As long as the skillchain lands, then the corresponding spell hits 160% harder, and magic damage never misses! This means that a Scholar using Immanence can guarantee to land a 2-step level 1 skillchain for 300 damage, and a well-geared Black Mage can still burst it for full damage. The Scholar doesn't even need much gear. A Scholar can still make skillchains even with no gear equipped and floored magic accuracy. In this case, MAB and magic accuracy isn't as important as Stratagem recharge.


    What if the MB Damage Bonus was instead awarded based on Skillchain Damage rather than skillchain steps?


    What would the pros and cons of this be? Given that immanence skillchain damage can't compete with geared melee players, I think it would probably make the current Immanence strategies ineffective in endgame content without directly changing Immanence. The ability should still situationally useful for low-man content and for soloing. It may also encourage people to start using melee again for skillchain purposes in SC>MB strategies since double light/dark or radiance/umbra skillchains should theoretically create the best magic bursts. Scholars could be used in support roles without completely replacing melees. They can do so many other things other than just skillchaining.

    Now since this is my idea, I obviously think it's perfect, so I can't criticize it myself. So please let me know what your thoughts are. What are viable solutions to bridging the gap between Melee skillchainers and Immanence in end-game content?
    (3)

  2. #2
    Player Zeldar's Avatar
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    Mar 2013
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    328
    Character
    Zeldar
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    I see no issue at all with 1 mage class having the ability to skillchain. This is not the "fix" that was needed: the ABILITY for melees to be effective is. This is an issue they are obviously working on resolving. They have shown us that it is a priority for them, and have asked for our feedback and patience as they address the issue. SCH being used to skillchain is fullfilling a need in endgame content until we can get the melee issue fixed. Please don't encourage them to take this away from us.
    (1)

  3. #3
    Player Zeldar's Avatar
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    Mar 2013
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    Character
    Zeldar
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Also, once melees are able to participate again due to the accuracy and AoE damage changes, immanence will no longer be the preferred SC method, just a bonus or backup plan. There is no need at all to nerf it. Theres only the need to boost the survivability of our poor DDs. Once this is done, DD skillchains will again be the preferred method.
    (0)

  4. #4
    Player OmnysValefor's Avatar
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    Oct 2012
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    1,186
    I want to say I'm genuinely hoping that the changes to how magic damage against secondary targets is calculated (against players) will be a boon to melee oriented strategies. The problem is that they're trialing this in entirely irrelevant content. My WHM alt has no problem at all sustaining MP through VD ambuscade, noone ever dies except me if the tank isn't fast to grab the adds. I heal through it and have plentiful mp to d2 the entire party and rebuff at book.

    Legion isn't the content to test this in. Next fight will be new so we don't even have experience to compare it to really.

    If the changes, when they impact relevant content, are good, we might see more melee oriented strategies but they're still going to have to accept that enfeeble spam really is a problem.

    Before someone comes in and says that that's the trade-off with melee: the problem is that there no trade-off for mages, aside from fights meant to be resistant to magic damage. Someone makes a skillchain and mages dominate. Done, finito, over. Consider a balanced party against Dazzling Delores (I know, she's nothin). Her mechanics (don't do damage from a distance, it makes enmity go nuts) are meant to nerf mages but mages take less damage from her aoes than the melee they're standing next to). Same with any fight you need to stack up on.

    If SE accepts this and starts making changes, Immanence is fine. Although I would make it so nukes for natural 0 (not because of stoneskin) count as a miss.
    (1)

  5. #5
    Player Zeldar's Avatar
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    Mar 2013
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    328
    Character
    Zeldar
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    I believe they are using ambuscade as a testing ground because its what is closest to a "control" that they have. Other content varies way too much from mob to mob to properly test anything. Ambuscade is the same for an entire month. By using ambuscade as a testing ground, they get content that nearly everyone does, with many different setups, using almost every job. It would be hard to test in Escha NMs because they differ so greatly and, lets face it, people are very reluctant to use DDs there until this is fixed.
    (0)

  6. #6
    Player Zeldar's Avatar
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    Mar 2013
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    328
    Character
    Zeldar
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    As a side note, I really love the "reflect" mechanic. I wish they would use it more often. It would be a crux for mages like enfeebles are for DDs.
    (1)

  7. #7
    Player OmnysValefor's Avatar
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    Oct 2012
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    1,186
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeldar View Post
    I believe they are using ambuscade as a testing ground because its what is closest to a "control" that they have. Other content varies way too much from mob to mob to properly test anything. Ambuscade is the same for an entire month. By using ambuscade as a testing ground, they get content that nearly everyone does, with many different setups, using almost every job. It would be hard to test in Escha NMs because they differ so greatly and, lets face it, people are very reluctant to use DDs there until this is fixed.
    @Bold, but there's no "control-sample" if they don't know how players (not devs, players--devs appear to perform wildly different in this game than players) are handling the fight without the changes. Further, the fights are over in frequently less than 3 minutes. There's not much to learn here.

    And the players will have no input because they've never done the fight before. Something a little more relevant would be much nicer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeldar View Post
    As a side note, I really love the "reflect" mechanic. I wish they would use it more often. It would be a crux for mages like enfeebles are for DDs.
    I wouldn't want to see it used everywhere, but I agree it would be nice to see again, whether the reflect was passed back to the casters (lol no more thundaja), or on to the tank.

    PVP is a bit cumbersome in this game but I wanna put my aegis head to head against my scholar friend. Just never get around to it. If he wins, then I'll have some things to say about Immanence! (lol)
    (0)
    Last edited by OmnysValefor; 08-03-2016 at 08:10 AM.

  8. #8
    Player Zeldar's Avatar
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    Mar 2013
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    328
    Character
    Zeldar
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Dude, I want reflect again partly so I can mess with my friends by nuking them, lol. It'll be like old time Lamia besieged when we got to nuke the charmed !!!!

    I get what you are saying with Ambuscade being the wrong avenue for testing because yeah, it IS pretty easy. Maybe intense ambuscade on VD would give some good measurements, but who does that???? Maybe after the initial testing they will expand the mechanics to better content.
    (0)

  9. #9
    Player detlef's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    1,645
    Character
    Philemon
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeldar View Post
    Dude, I want reflect again partly so I can mess with my friends by nuking them, lol. It'll be like old time Lamia besieged when we got to nuke the charmed !!!!
    Those people who nuked charmed people are flailing wyrms in Domain Invasion now.
    (0)

  10. #10
    Player Zeldar's Avatar
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    Mar 2013
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    328
    Character
    Zeldar
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Lol, not me... that would screw up my own rewards bc it wouldnt die as fast if everyone else was dead.
    (0)

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