Originally Posted by
Hyrist
Thorva, I'm flatly not interested in the posturing debate you seem to want to do with everyone who has a different viewpoint with you. I have not argued that Red Mage's front line is capable of 145 content. Quit trying to posture yourself better or more knowledgeable than others based off that accusation.
Also, it's proving that you're not reading my post in its entirety before you start replying, as you addressed Blind II's issue before this. Please read a post in its entirety before you decide to hit the "Quote" button and begin trying to reply. Point in case:
Where I said these together at different points of my post:
This is where I acknowledged both of your points and went on to make points that the direction you were seeking for the job wasn't necessary. Arguing that the correct path for Red Mage perhaps should be similar to Corsair while still retaining the label of 'Support'
As far as:
You implied it by omission, by defining Red Mage as a Buffer/Debuffer job, and then continued to list on how our other functions just don't cut it. I thank you for your clarification otherwise. We agree then that Red Mage is a support class, one in which it's buff and Debuff aspects are an important facet, but not it's only facet.
Getting back to the point, the reason why I spent so much highlighting the effectiveness of Red Mage on ~135 content is that your purpose for Red Mage at 145 is effectively to turn tail away from the course it has at ~135. To quote the previous post I made just before your reply, which it seems you did not read:
You asked me to point out where you were taking something away from Red Mage - you quite potentially wanted to take away its exclusivity on Temper, in your very first two posts on this thread. Temper II is pretty much the one thing that enables Red Mage to have any hope of being comparable in Melee post 135 (Read: after other adjustments are made). You take that away from it you pigeon-hole the class in the back line permanently. It may be a net gain for the party, but it is a severe net loss for the Red Mage who desires to be in the front lines.
Also, not sure if Triple Attack on a whole party is a good idea - one of the issues I wanted to bring up for discussions on adjustments that Red Mage would benefit from is the TP feed issue. My idea on that as a general adjustment is to have Store TP's effect calculate on the entire amount of TP generated in an attack round, balanced so that it can in-fact break the minimum per-hit limit we currently have on it. (And for the record, I don't buy the coding excuse when they turned around and coded a queuing system for Ambuscade. Important balance adjustments are worth the time investment, as I'm sure you agree.)
So, bottom line: We are not in conflict as to the state of Red Mage right now. Though, honestly I feel your obsession with the top echelon of endgame is bit much seeming the mass majority of the players out right now aren't even scratching the second tier of Escha. It's where you're trying to direct Red Mages that we disagree - that sort of discussion needs no parses as we're talking theoretical improvements, and lining it up with what is good for Red Mage right now.
And that's all I'm saying about that. I'd rather talk about the ideas - because that's the real meat of this discussion. I really don't have a negative view of you, other than you seem to be easily combative.
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Going down some points again.
Blind II: You're missing the point of my change to the spell. I'm talking static % hard enforced miss chance. We're talking a hard check against a (let's say 15% fully merited, I like this number.) proc chance of that attack missing, regardless of accuracy/evasion difference. Akin to Blink on a debuff, that lasts for a duration, rather than having a set number of shadows that can be wiped. That would make the spell effective in any circumstance in which physical damage was a factor.
Temper II: I don't see your obsession with taking away Red Mage's personal effects for the sake of a quick gimick. This is why I said reconnect with the group. It's not 'a few'. This is one of the few things that still excite Red Mages as most who cared about the huge buff/debuff aspects of the 75 Era have moved on to other classes that appeal to them more. Do you not like Meleeing? That's the only thing I can infer from your continuous nerfing of this skill to accommodate everyone else but a Red Mage. There is no need to change this spell, at all.
Slow II: I'm talking non TP using TP attacks (the ones that function as 'normal' attacks) Given that we're aiming go push Melee back into content, speculatively (as we're both speculating as to what SE would do at this point) SE would have no ground to stand on, as Mobs are still receiving TP from incoming attacks. So much so, in fact, that we'd likely have to re-address Subtle Blow (as per my previous idea concerning that).
Raising DoT: I think you have the wrong approach here.
Let's start at the baseline: Scholars 'DoT's are effectively their Tier VI nuking line, and it's had problems since the get go (some of which required quick patching). Part of which is the fact that there can be no Two Helixes on a monster at a time. This actually cements it as "The Scholar's" Very firmly.
You can't make that assessment with Poison II. When you buff it, it goes to everyone who can use it, RDM, BLM, and DRK. Which of these three do you think will end up using? It's likely not going to be Red Mage. Why bring a RDM to cast it when your BLM can cast it in-between death casts for a small loss in damage? You'd have to tack that damage adjustment onto gifts and, honestly, I don't see where it would fit there. I can't help but think that if we want to be doing Damage over Time, we should be meleeing. That's what our enspells are for, and we already get gifts for those and have it higher than any other class. That's not an insult in the idea that our Magical DoT should be boosted, that's just the default thinking pattern I get whenever that conversation is raised. Red Mage has never really been a powerful DoT class. It just simply abused DoTs to out-survive monsters. We're going to need something changing different than Poison II to have that, and I'm stuggeling of thinking of a way to do that that doesn't outright bust a major balance mechanic.
As far as our Barspells: They're single target, so they're really not meant to be a party utility the way WHM's are. Honestly, I'd rather a stronger boost to Phalanx and Accession that and make it stack-able with Phalanx II.
Issues with things like Dia III, Bio III, and the rest of our merit spells being conflicting when we as Red Mages need to levy as much angles as we can to be party effective: Instead of having the merits force raise the cap effectivness of each spell, have it effect duration like the Dia/Bio line and/or have it simply ease the curve of dMND/dINT/Enhancing. Have Bio III and Dia III scale off of Darkness and Enfeebeling gear (this would go with the raising darkness magic rating mentioned earlier)
Fixing Enspell II's : Here's the rub. How? The obvious would be to change it so that the cap and base are effected at the time of cast. That one is obvious. But here's the deal it's never going to outweigh Enspell I's on a multi-attack format, and that's our going thing. The damage would have to be buffed pretty heavily. Then again, perhaps this is how you get your DoT buff? It already inflicts magical evasion down on the dominant element above the one of the Enspell cast, perhaps it can instead apply a powerful DoT Debuff that is maintained by initial hits (or perhaps even grows with damage). The question is whether or not that can be coded appropriately.
Gear: Standing opinion is this: Red Mage and Blue Mage should share the same Armor Pool. Period. There is literally no reason not to do it this way. The fear of Red Mage becoming overpowered is laughable in the face of where Blue Mage stands right now, and sharing the same armor pool is not going to innately make up for the differences in traits and spells that pull Blue Mage ahead of Red Mage.
There's still the matter of Red Mage's attack deficiency. I'm really thinking that the answer there is just plain Dual Wield for Red Mages, enabling better sub-job usage for those going on the front lines. Another adjustment they can do is simply nerf the attack correction form level Difference. That helps everyone but Red Mage and other low-attack classes will benefit from it more. But I'm still of the opinion that those who've invested as far as they have into the melee route from RDM do not deserved to be snubbed when making adjustments for 145+ endgame.