Will SE ever shine light on RDM again, will SE even answer us?

[Selindrile]

Fine, don't listen to me and continue to be refused party invites. I don't get called "the best RDM" daily for no reason.

Lol, "invites" you say, there's not really much hope of "invites" for anyone for the 135~145 content that Thorva and I have been mentioning. That's generally only done by linkshells, rarely pickup groups, at least on my server.

I don't (and I doubt Thorva does) worry about getting "invites" because I am (and likely he is) in a shell that does such things, and we already go, but generally on another job, if Rdm is appropriate for the content, we go that, but our whole point is that it rarely is.

I also get called "the best computer tech" all the time by my friends, though really I'm quite terrible at it, but I'm better than them, and I'm willing to help them, doesn't make me any good at it, in the grand scheme of things.

[Hyrist]

Throva, if you need convincing of Red Mage not being as bad as you're pressing upon it, I suggest you go to FFXI AH and talk to the people there, in particular Portrey, who I don't think posts here anymore. It is best heard by people who are there frequently.

However, even you admit that up to 132 Red Mage is fairly incredible. Though there are some points I'd like to snip at as far as your posts go, the issue can be summarized by this statement of yours:

Rdm is a buff/enfeeble job and fails miserably at that in today's content due to the meta nm's and meta jobs.
The proposed correction: Red Mage is not a Buff/Enfeeble job. It is a support role job, similar to Corsair. The difference in diction means all the difference in function on the field. Our Enfeebles and Buffs are part of the whole that makes up our support function. It can, and in my humble opinion, should, also include all the other functions that you ruled out due to not being as good as the specialists in their field. In situations in which an additional skill-chain can mean another round of bursts from mages, I'd recommend against being too critical of the idea that a class that does not do optimal damage should outright not do damage or is not worth the slot.

But the true crux is the underlined - which is the culprit of all of this: The current meta. A lot of the current meta rely upon mechanics that are fundamentally broken, have been since years ago, and are at the peak of its struggle with players now. For example: the fact that Geomancer's Debufs have no level correction function at all, due to being unresistable, is a major flaw, especially considering their max potency.

Additionally, skill-chains were meant as a Melee function to co-ordinate with Melee as teamwork with Mages and other Melee. Scholar's ability completely bypasses this - how it got past balance checks is beyond me but it should have never existed, in my opinion.

Every other issue is describing what every other Melee has been suffering from, Accuracy, AoEs are general problems that, when addressed, Red Mages benefit from. Red mage doesn't suffer from TP generation issues - it can self-skillchain continuously if well geared. It's damage drops off due to the level correction on attack, which, if accuracy isn't a critical issue anymore, will get buffed due to more party emphasis on it.

The danger in the front lines is another issue that hits everyone - honestly, that can be something we, as a support, could address: If Square Enix balanced checked the enfeebles they weakened.

But first, again, a couple corrections this time, to the general RDM populace:
Blind II has been considered a waste of merits for many years now, that won't change with nm acc.
You know this statement to be situational at best. The condition in which Blind II is useful was niche (In situations where Evasion was neither capped or floored.) And that's why people called it useless. It was great for working with an evasion tank, and just one Merit outclassed a single percentage of Slow II when dINT dMND are equally capped. It takes quite a bit of Delay increase for Slow's scaling to outpace 40-60 additional accuracy loss above Blind I and Kura-Ni respectively and in cases where you can evasion tank, that's typically overkill, or inaccessible. That made Blind II great for low man groups on non-accuracy capped content.

I'd speculate that we need to rethink testing on Blind II's effectiveness overall due to the addition of RUN, and the increased percentage of monsters who spam attacks with internal delays not effected by slow. It would make sense that the Niche would have widened in these circumstances.

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To be clear, I do agree that the class needs a buff. However I would impress upon you to reconsider the route in which it is done. A lot of the problems about Red Mage in your eyes stem from the idea that Red Mage MUST be a specialist comparable to the ones you listed or it has no purpose, and I respectfully disagree. I've found that my experiences with the class run parallel with your statement that before ilvl132, we preform very well. I don't believe that performance should be degraded down to one or two gimmicks that justify our slot in a world where there is a lot broken with it that needs to be fixed first. If we're a part of the solution to that, or ease that solution, then we find our party slot.

Some pointers on my suggestions for Red Mage:

Phalanx II pales in comparison to Phalanx until max merits where it becomes equal at high Enhancing levels. However with Ascension there seems to be no point in the use of Phalanx II in compassion to Phalanx. Instead, I'd recommend that Phalanx II be changed from flat damage reduction number, to Damage Reduction percentage, capping at 15% at 500 Enhancing skill and 5 Merits, (tentative, that may be a little high). Balance factor is that it could count as Gear Damage Reduction and thus subject to cap. This would make it Unique to Red Mage due to being a merit spell, and address the outgoing damage output issues without messing too hard with what is pretty much considered Job Exclusive buffs.

Similarly, instead of correcting accuracy/evasion stastic, we can have Blind II add a static evasion chance calculated by dINT and enfeebling skill, up to a cap determined by Merit level. This will remove the 'overcapped accuracy' issue most NMs have due to level difference scaling and blow the niche of Blind II wide open.

As far as Slow II, it should effect all internal delays of 'TP move' normal attacks, and always should have.

Dia's line could be adjusted to include Magical Defense down. If we are concerned by the use of it through other classes, a Trait that makes this change on Red Mage (Level 51) could keep the balance between other classes in check, and give Red Mage a reason to use Dia above other classes. I also feel that Dia III's potency should grow with the number of merits, starting at 15% and growing to 19 or 20% at max merits. Alternatively, Saboteur affecting Dia's Potency would also work.

I am not comfortable with the idea of Temper line being something that can be shared with other classes. I'm sorry but they're effectively a trait a Red Mage has to maintain, not a superior version of a Corsair's roll. And 26% Triple attack does not feel like something I feel should be shared given the level of double and triple attack classes already have at their disposal. This is effectively our catch-up skill when it comes to melee performance. While I feel this may boil down to a difference in opinion However, - I do not believe Red Mage should be regulated to back-line position except when individual circumstances call for it. Making this a party buff would once again solidify Red Mage being in the back line by default in all party situations and would immediately result in me unsubscribing once again. I just flatly don't want this to happen, sorry.

There is not much else I feel needs adjusting here. Red Mage on the melee end really only suffers from attack starvation statically. We have access to the best WS and most of the gear necessary to abuse it. Yes, Taeon is weak in comparison to Herculean, but, like other jobs, we gear around our own abilities, and our spells help close parts of that gap. The rest is knowing what pieces to get where, and FFXIAH has a lot of info on that.

I strongly suggest reconnecting with people there. I can only share what I've found in my research and what little testing I've found. But the confidence exuded by those who are actually on those boards is infectious, as well as the solid data that backs it. There is still a lot that needs to be fixed. But a lot has changed for the better for the class, in my opinion.

[Rydal]

The merit spells are still stuck in the 75 era. Dia and Paralyze are the only useful ones because they can actually work. As already mentioned, Accession+Phalanx I outdoes Phalanx II, even while wearing augmented Relic armor. I got rid of all my Phalanx II merits for this reason and for the fact that tanks and BLUs can cast Phalanx on themselves. Blind II has needed to be revisited for a long time.

I don't see how Temper being castable on others, even if just with Accession, would make us backline. It doesn't take anything away from us. It just sounds kind of selfish. It is a nice toy that we have and it definitely levels the playing field when it comes to boosting our own multi-attack but this would give the spell use when we are not meleeing. Right now meleeing high level content is extremely dangerous and we can opt to conserve ourselves by backlining, rather than risk suicide. Temper being casted on others would give us an extra tool to toss out to others. Honestly, I don't care either way, but it doesn't pidgeon hole us to backlining at all. It's not like Temper being self cast makes us all frontline.

Also, I think this debate isn't drawing lines correctly. From what I'm gathering, everyone is making the content benchmark different. The Mithras are using the game's highest level content the benchmark (makes sense!), while others are making things like Vagary, SR, etc the benchmark (???). This is where the debate becomes convoluted. Of course RDM performs well in CL 130 (Vagary, SR, Incursion). All jobs do. It has nothing to do with RDM individually. Our gear and JP makes us completely overpower that kind of content. Escha and Reisenjima gear and master JP vs CL 130 is not an even playing field because CL 130 content was released way before Reisenjima, etc. Merlinic/119 Abjuration (+1) makes Skirmish, Delve, Vagary gear a joke. If it makes the gear of that content a joke, it also makes that content a joke. I can be the main healer, buffer, nuker and enfeebler in SR with a BLU BLU RDM set up because my gear and JP allow me to. A year ago today, it would have been much more difficult because Rscha Ru-aun and Reisenjima did not exist. We CANNOT make Vagary or SR level content the benchmark because then we will not see any major issues with RDM. Try replacing a BLU or SCH with a RDM against Reisenjima HELM NMs or WoC. You'll start to see that you NEED to be the best in a role in order to keep up. There's a reason that RUN shines in those fights over PLD and BLM magic bursting Death are necessary.

I agree that many of our self targeting spells (Gain, Enspells, Temper, etc) and our exclusive enfeebles (Distract, Inundation, Addle) help close the gap between us and normal melee. With good gear, Accuracy becomes less of an issue (at least no more of an issue than with other melee) and we start to see the problem being our much lower attack rating, lack of melee JAs, and our subjob/gear choices making or breaking our build. For example, RDM almost always use NIN (or DNC) for melee. Because of this, we lose out on STP, Attack Bonus, Defense Bonus, Double Attack and Accuracy Bonus (if not subbing DNC). We also miss out on melee JAs that subbing WAR allows us to enjoy. We have to overgear ourselves to compensate for the loss of these traits/JAs.

I think they should redo the combat and magic skills for RDM. Drop Archery (unless they increase it and put us on some WS), Throwing and Divine magic. Increase Sword to A- (equal to RUN), and increase Dark magic, Parrying and Shield to at least a C-. E and F are basically worthless at 99+. At 75, they can still do something, but at 99+ you might as well not have it. Maybe add Staff and raise Healing skill to C+. For JP/Gifts, Enhancing/Enfeebling duration should be increased by another 1 second. Stymie should be redone completely.

Or just do nothing and leave RDM as a try twice as hard for half the results job. I'll play it either way.

[Hyrist]

Melee JA's aren't so much of a problem as much as the fact that we have no native means of increasing our own Attack through any gainable means, and therefore are reliant on those JAs. If we hadn't been shut down on additional spells already, I'd say that'd be the cleanest route to go.

But, to touch on Temper. Spreading temper is the same as using Dia to buff our Attack. Once it becomes public grounds, Red Mage as an individual performance class suffers an indirect nerf. Instead of being the class with the highest multi-attack stacking, we instead fall behind every other class in Multi-Attack, because we become expected to give it to everyone by default. There's no point in Red Mage being in the front line at that point, you've just widened the gap by 20~26% Triple attack. You absolutely will be pigeon-holed with that. It's no different than Refresh/Haste era policies. SE is well aware on how Red Mage gets flooded with spellcasting when they're forced to single target buff people with multiple spells. This is why Inundation is a debuff, not a Buff spell as it was originally designed.

Is it selfish? Absolutely. But its selfish on the same level as saying that Natural Meditation is not default AoE, or that Warrior's Double Attack Trait, Breserk and Defender skills don't need to be AoE. Red Mage's Melee statistics are tied to its casting should not, by default mean it should always be a shared thing. If this was, in fact, a JA instead of an MA, we'd never be having this discussion on it. Temper is Red Mage's Multi-Attack JA. SE made it a spell to fit with it's stylistic history and keep with the 'Mage' motif. This is why I don't see it as wrong to keep Temper single-cast. Again, it's pretty much make or break for me at this point.

As far as the debate's line goes. I have to disagree with us drawing different lines. The conclusion I drew from everyone's argument is that people have different ideals as what they want Red Mage to BE on higher level difficulty content. A lot of Red Mages prefer that they keep the same line of actions they do up to ilvl130 content up higher. Others want to revert to Pre-ilvl era Red Mage and focus on support casting. I feel as if both approaches should be valid throughout the entirety of the game, given that there are plenty of role-changing hybrids in this game - having Red Mage be another one of them will not ruin the dynamic any further.

As far increasing our ratings - I don't see the point for Sword/Dagger. Our attack starvation comes from our lack of innate abilities to either dual wield or increase our attack a significant amount, not the 28 skill we lose out on our B- rating. That's really not much attack when you realize that's barely more than 10% of what we gain from our ilvl Swords alone. Buffs to Dia III will solve the attack problem but will fall in the same line of problems as our Temper argument: any boost available to us that is also given to the entire party at the same time is a net-zero for us in comparative strength (not factoring for diminishing returns playing in our favor). Seeming the popular argument against Red Mage is its performance in comparison to specialist classes, we're categorically needing buffs specifically to Red Mage's performance in an admittedly selfish manner. In this fashion we're not suffering from a loss of just under two and a half dozen attack. We're suffering from a bit over two and a half hundred attack in JA's alone. There's no minor adjustment that can be done to surmount this. Minimally, SE can lower the accuracy requirement allowing us to gear harder into Attack as well as benefit from the AoE attack buffs other Melee will undoubtedly get. Which is fine by me as I don't expect to match a dedicated damage dealer with what else we offer. (Although, looking at Corsair, perhaps we should.) But if we're talking improving our individual performance then the most sufficient way SE could resolve our attack deficiency problem would be to give us Dual Wield natively. That requires no additional spell slots and would enable us to Sub warrior or Dark Knight for the attack boosts.

And if we can't be put on Herculean, a comparable alternative that emphasis multi-attack (namely triple) that is augment-able would be preferable, but not as imperative as the native attack problems we have JA/Subjob/Self Buff wise.

Mage wise, my aforementioned changes to our Merit spells will do us a world of good.

As far as Styme. I'm of the mind that it should work over a duration, rather than on one spell. Unless they make magical accuracy a non issue, in which case scratch Styme all together and give us a different secondary 1hr.

[Thorva]

Throva, if you need convincing of Red Mage not being as bad as you're pressing upon it, I suggest you go to FFXI AH and talk to the people there, in particular Portrey, who I don't think posts here anymore. It is best heard by people who are there frequently.

I am on that site very often, and if you have find me a crowd of rdm's being taken into 145 content I would love to see them. I can guarantee you, even as high up on a pedestal as you have placed him, protey is not going to 145+ content on rdm.

The proposed correction: Red Mage is not a Buff/Enfeeble job. It is a support role job, similar to Corsair. The difference in diction means all the difference in function on the field. Our Enfeebles and Buffs are part of the whole that makes up our support function.

So you are trying to tell me that rdm support isn't based off enfeeble/enhance...... Like you literally just restated.

should, also include all the other functions that you ruled out due to not being as good as the specialists in their field

Please quote me where I ruled rdm versatility out. I would love to know the point where I said rdm can't cure, nuke, or deal damage. I know for a fact I never said that. I do, however, know the very opposite. I even stated I have done the very opposite. I have main healed a vagary, I have been #2 in damage in an exp party while both opening skill chains as well as Magic Bursting off the skill chains.
But you neglect to recall the fact that I never once said rdm under-preforms in 132 and lower content. I said because of the meta nm's and circle jobs, rdm is out on higher end content.

But the true crux is the underlined - which is the culprit of all of this: The current meta. A lot of the current meta rely upon mechanics that are fundamentally broken, have been since years ago, and are at the peak of its struggle with players now. For example: the fact that Geomancer's Debufs have no level correction function at all, due to being unresistable, is a major flaw, especially considering their max potency.

Yeah... I mentioned that, I also proposed a way to bring rdm enfeebles back by doing the same thing that was done with geo to rdm just on a lower potency scale. That way since rdm can cast more enfeebles it won't become the broken 30 seconds between attacks and -50% def.

Additionally, skill-chains were meant as a Melee function to co-ordinate with Melee as teamwork with Mages and other Melee. Scholar's ability completely bypasses this - how it got past balance checks is beyond me but it should have never existed, in my opinion.

And now they exist and there is no way around the desire to scope out a sch removing the need for melee sc, which is more reason as to why I proposed options the way I did. To allow people to choose how they want to do the content, by giving support rolls a way to allow the melee to be in that range as well as increasing the damage they deal while being stacked up in -dt gear. (I.E. target-able temper and m.eva/eva or -dt options)

Every other issue is describing what every other Melee has been suffering from, Accuracy, AoEs are general problems that, when addressed, Red Mages benefit from. Red mage doesn't suffer from TP generation issues - it can self-skillchain continuously if well geared. It's damage drops off due to the level correction on attack, which, if accuracy isn't a critical issue anymore, will get buffed due to more party emphasis on it.

Again, I already pointed this out. I fail to see why you are trying to debate with me. Rdm is massively lacking in attack which is heavily needed in 145 content, stuff you don't even see melee in. Again, something I gave up ideas to counter with already. It seems you are trying to use rdm ability in 132 and lower content as to why it is so great and it doesn't need buffs. That just isn't true, many jobs need many buffs for the 145 content, right now the only set up is tank, healer, geo, sch, blm, blm. That is a huge flaw in SE content design. Proposing ideas to allow not just rdm in that content, but many melee jobs as well because of rdm brings in balance. The thing people scream for, but once ideas get tossed around people want to claim it would make it overpowered and push the ideas aside.

Blind II has been considered a waste of merits for many years now, that won't change with nm acc. You know this statement to be situational at best. The condition in which Blind II is useful was niche (In situations where Evasion was neither capped or floored.) And that's why people called it useless. It was great for working with an evasion tank, and just one Merit outclassed a single percentage of Slow II when dINT dMND are equally capped. It takes quite a bit of Delay increase for Slow's scaling to outpace 40-60 additional accuracy loss above Blind I and Kura-Ni respectively and in cases where you can evasion tank, that's typically overkill, or inaccessible. That made Blind II great for low man groups on non-accuracy capped content.
I'd speculate that we need to rethink testing on Blind II's effectiveness overall due to the addition of RUN, and the increased percentage of monsters who spam attacks with internal delays not effected by slow. It would make sense that the Niche would have widened in these circumstances.

Our eva at 145 content is so drastically low in comparison to nm acc that blind II will not matter, it has been that way since delve. Our gear has changed, but so have the nm's. Everything has scaled. Blind II just is not effective, and it certainly isn't effective enough to have a rdm take the spot of a blm in a MB set up in 145 content when a blm can cast blind 1 on maju and still MB 2 spells for capped dmg, so changing the nm acc from capped with blind I and MAYBE dropping its fight long accuracy by 3% and using a rdm to MB maybe 130k dmg in the time a blm can do 200k dmg. I repeat, rdm is still out.

To be clear, I do agree that the class needs a buff. However I would impress upon you to reconsider the route in which it is done. A lot of the problems about Red Mage in your eyes stem from the idea that Red Mage MUST be a specialist comparable to the ones you listed or it has no purpose, and I respectfully disagree. I've found that my experiences with the class run parallel with your statement that before ilvl132, we preform very well. I don't believe that performance should be degraded down to one or two gimmicks that justify our slot in a world where there is a lot broken with it that needs to be fixed first. If we're a part of the solution to that, or ease that solution, then we find our party slot.

Show me where my proposal takes literally anything away from rdm. It doesn't, it build on what we have, rdm has always been, up until recently, the strongest enfeeble/enhance job in the game. Since abyssea people have pulled away from "bring any job, we can still find use for it" to the "bring this job or we can't take you" style thinking.
Now.... again.... because people seem to either blatantly ignore, or just flat out miss it, I still go to 135 and lower content on jobs I want. Rdm and Drk do fine with the right gear and a lot of knowledge. I blink like a christmas tree on rdm even with /lockstyle. I swap gear for literally everything. I swap gear just for walking around. Plenty of people know rdm, not only the few names you see, however those wide spread names are NOT going to 145 content on rdm. Just like I don't go to 145 content on drk, saevel doesn't go on war, Afania might get to go on his cor though, Valli doesn't go to 145 content on thf (he uses a new name now) 145 content.... not 135, we are talking about rdm in 145 content. Where only rank, whm, sch, geo, blm go. Something I am making a proposal to allow not ONLY rdm, but melee jobs as well.

Phalanx II pales in comparison to Phalanx until max merits where it becomes equal at high Enhancing levels. However with Ascension there seems to be no point in the use of Phalanx II in compassion to Phalanx. Instead, I'd recommend that Phalanx II be changed from flat damage reduction number, to Damage Reduction percentage, capping at 15% at 500 Enhancing skill and 5 Merits, (tentative, that may be a little high). Balance factor is that it could count as Gear Damage Reduction and thus subject to cap. This would make it Unique to Red Mage due to being a merit spell, and address the outgoing damage output issues without messing too hard with what is pretty much considered Job Exclusive buffs.

At this point most rdm have given up hope on phalanx II and just /sch and use phalanx 1. Phalanx 2 actually is stronger max merits with spell enhance cap and 5/5, but it isn't enough of a difference for rdm to give up para/slow II. However as you state it being reworked as a % dmg reduction I think would be enough to get many rdm to put merits into it even if it was only 3% per merit for a max of 15% or drop it down to 2% per merit at a max of 10%. I Highly doubt anyone would merit at 1% per merit unless it breaks the -dt cap of 50%
One of the main problems with phalanx 1 is that SE ****ed up and gave both pld and run phalanx. That should have been exclusive, I complained the day I saw SE handing it over to pld, I remember I was in abyssea farming Orthrus horns. In fact I was on rdm/sch using accession phalanx.

Similarly, instead of correcting accuracy/evasion stastic, we can have Blind II add a static evasion chance calculated by dINT and enfeebling skill, up to a cap determined by Merit level. This will remove the 'overcapped accuracy' issue most NMs have due to level difference scaling and blow the niche of Blind II wide open.

Would need a massive gain in order to be used in 145 content. The nm acc is entirely too high.

As far as Slow II, it should effect all internal delays of 'TP move' normal attacks, and always should have.

This would counter SE design to give ever nm massive tp regain and time based tp moves. They would declare that overpowered and nerf it back to original state.

Dia's line could be adjusted to include Magical Defense down. If we are concerned by the use of it through other classes, a Trait that makes this change on Red Mage (Level 51) could keep the balance between other classes in check, and give Red Mage a reason to use Dia above other classes. I also feel that Dia III's potency should grow with the number of merits, starting at 15% and growing to 19 or 20% at max merits. Alternatively, Saboteur affecting Dia's Potency would also work.

I never claimed to have the best idea for any of the proposed ideas, they were just ideas. Something like this would be a good idea, even if they only made dia 3 to have the m. def down.

I am not comfortable with the idea of Temper line being something that can be shared with other classes. I'm sorry but they're effectively a trait a Red Mage has to maintain, not a superior version of a Corsair's roll. And 26% Triple attack does not feel like something I feel should be shared given the level of double and triple attack classes already have at their disposal. This is effectively our catch-up skill when it comes to melee performance. While I feel this may boil down to a difference in opinion However, - I do not believe Red Mage should be regulated to back-line position except when individual circumstances call for it. Making this a party buff would once again solidify Red Mage being in the back line by default in all party situations and would immediately result in me unsubscribing once again. I just flatly don't want this to happen, sorry.

This is the opinion of a few vs the opinion of how ever many else that would like to see something like this implemented. While I do agree triple attack could inherently be broken in terms of giving it out as a buff in that quantity. I don't think SE would allow that much triple attack in a single buff. This is also why I said make temper 2 double attack and make that one the targetable spell. All the melee rdm would cry because they lose triple attack, but it isn't like rdm can gear up 20%+ in triple attack gear and load up double attack to well over 30% to balance out the loss of temper triple attack. Furthermore this would NOT force rdm into a backline job, if a rdm is in the party it already has a slot, all it has to do is cast spell on other DD's, how does that force rdm to be back line? Dnc can cure people but it isn't forced to stand with the mages. (can build tp off no-foot rise, raise potency of dances too) That was just your own personal view of a rdm, if that one adjustment locks a rdm as a backline only job then it somehow got more potency when casting on pt than self.

There is not much else I feel needs adjusting here. Red Mage on the melee end really only suffers from attack starvation statically. We have access to the best WS and most of the gear necessary to abuse it. Yes, Taeon is weak in comparison to Herculean, but, like other jobs, we gear around our own abilities, and our spells help close parts of that gap. The rest is knowing what pieces to get where, and FFXIAH has a lot of info on that.

Gear is what makes people able to do things, taeon in general is so attack/stat starved that temper II and access to ws does NOT close the gap. Want proof of that? Put a rdm in taeon vs a blu in taeon, check the parse, then put that same blu in herc gear. Tell me the difference. A decked out rdm will cap out with about +260 dex "MAYBE" 270 and in the low 1k range of attack during ws. That is top tier, decked out BiS CDC rdm. Get a mid-tier (which herc would be the standard) blu in herc with the same amount of gil tossed into augments running tang+1 and niburu blade, and you will have a cdc set with closing in on +300 dex and more than 1.4k attack before it uses /war ja to boost it's attack even further. (My ls has plenty of bandwagon herc geared blus with that very gear in those very stat ranges.) Go map out a BiS rdm, you will see I am dead on with those numbers.

I strongly suggest reconnecting with people there. I can only share what I've found in my research and what little testing I've found. But the confidence exuded by those who are actually on those boards is infectious, as well as the solid data that backs it. There is still a lot that needs to be fixed. But a lot has changed for the better for the class, in my opinion.

You didn't have any useful data to back anything in the 145 content. You had a great idea with phalanx, but blind II is dead, slow II won't get changed because it would screw with SE coding as well as been seen as too strong even in the eyes of the company that gave rudra a massive buff a couple years ago.


"Reconnecting" with people won't change the fact rdm will NOT get invites to 145 content. If you are running with people that are taking rdm and melee to 145 content without these or other buffs, I can assure you that you are paying for a win while being on that job or you aren't winning with that setup. Both melee and rdm have zero use for 145 content. Please stop talking about rdm ability in 130 content like it matters when someone says endgame. Shout groups in sparks gear can beat all 119 content, some can beat 124 content. Reforge and skirmish geared jobs can beat 129 content. So rdm has usefulness for a full 3 more ilvl worth of content before it starts getting left behind, at 135 content rdm are few and far between, at 145 content rdm as well as melee are nonexistent.

Even if merit 2 category got buffed on rdm, then you still have to determine what to put merits in. That is a fix for lvl 75 cap rdm, not ilvl rdm. SE would actually have to rework the merit 2 category into new useful options for rdm and make all the merit 2 spells available to rdm at all times while NOT giving those buffs to other jobs. This is something SE would just never do, more than likely, and I highly doubt it despite the rumors we have heard since the release of ToAU, in order to adjust rdm merit 2 category and still make it usefull, SE would have to fully unlock all merits in merit 2 for all jobs. That means 5/5 on all jobs in all merit categories.

[Urmom]

I am on that site very often, and if you have find me a crowd of rdm's being taken into 145 content I would love to see them. I can guarantee you, even as high up on a pedestal as you have placed him, protey is not going to 145+ content on rdm.

See here's the thing though. People don't necessarily choose what is best or even willing to try what works. The community is very stubborn sometimes in what they choose to bring. You could be fighting a mob that absolutely has to have a rdm enfeeble on it at all times and is fairly resistant and a lot of groups would still bring a mediocre geared sch or blm and hope they land it than a rdm they know will.

Even if you made a mob that was so evasion/magic evasive that literally the only way to hit it was with idris geos and full jp rdm debuffs and brd buffs people would still try to force their square peg into the round hole and take extra other mages or setup sneak attack ws shenanigans.

I agree rdm could use some help but with full jps it's not as far away as some jobs at least in some respects... but large parts of the community are afraid to try anything new until it's been beaten in there head that it's not only good but it's the best. I mean look at geo it was always decent but it wasn't until it became overwhelmingly OP that it really caught on. It took automatics getting dts on par with wearing aegis and epeoltry at the same time before that caught on for tanking.

[Thorva]

See here's the thing though. People don't necessarily choose what is best or even willing to try what works. The community is very stubborn sometimes in what they choose to bring. You could be fighting a mob that absolutely has to have a rdm enfeeble on it at all times and is fairly resistant and a lot of groups would still bring a mediocre geared sch or blm and hope they land it than a rdm they know will.

Even if you made a mob that was so evasion/magic evasive that literally the only way to hit it was with idris geos and full jp rdm debuffs and brd buffs people would still try to force their square peg into the round hole and take extra other mages or setup sneak attack ws shenanigans.

I agree rdm could use some help but with full jps it's not as far away as some jobs at least in some respects... but large parts of the community are afraid to try anything new until it's been beaten in there head that it's not only good but it's the best. I mean look at geo it was always decent but it wasn't until it became overwhelmingly OP that it really caught on. It took automatics getting dts on par with wearing aegis and epeoltry at the same time before that caught on for tanking.

I understand that and agree, what I am trying to do, what I have been trying to do, is come up with a way and ideas that would NOT make the job over powered, yet still bring in new ideas and give players the option to play on the jobs they enjoy.
I said the same thing you stated, "a lot of groups would still bring a mediocre geared sch or blm and hope they land it than a rdm they know will." That is because the current dynamics and nm's can still be fought either fully without enfeebles, or with zero potency/duration/tier1 enfeebles. This current system pushes rdm down the ladder. Rdm isn't far from being end game. Anyone that has ever played rdm at 2100 jp knows that, but scale system combat and lack of rdm target-able buffs such as the option to cast temper on pt, or the lack of needed potent tier 2+ enfeebles are what drives the player base away from using rdm in 145 content.
The current system leaves rdm out, in most 135 content and all 145+ content. Again, this is why I was trying to bring up ideas that are possible and would not break the job on a level of idris geo, (which I still think needs to be nerfed)
Raising rdm DoT to a semi-respectable level
Poison II is way low on dmg in comparison to helix, 100ish or 250ish if you use sabo vs 10k, rdm doesn't need 10k, but 400 and 800 with sabo would be nice
Making temper target-able (At the very least make temper 2, target-able and change from triple attack to double attack)
Turning phalanx II into a % based dmg reduction as Hyrist brilliantly came up with as an option (The only problem I have here is the allowable merits spent)
Adjusting Dia as both physical and magical -def, in the same sense you can adjust Bio to lower both attk and m. attk (The only problem I have here is the allowable merits spent, that or finally give use tier 4)
Raising the barspell cap so whm isn't beating rdm (this still won't break the game because rdm will never replace a rdm, it just offers incentive)
Fix enspell II, it is terrible
Futhermore SE needs to stop throwing darts on a board with rdm gear, I realize rdm can't have top end options, but a blue mage is a mage, how is blu on way better gear options than rdm, I know they aren't the same, let's avoid that discussion because that still takes us to the topic of blu gets high attack and gets to /war and rdm has inferior attack and needs to sub a dw job which ultimately kills any conversation about making rdm too "op" as a melee. Blu gets on Adhemar, Amalric, Carmine, and Herc gear. That gives Blu a top tier TP/WS set, nuke set, optional high tier ACC pieces. Rdm is on Amalric, Carmine, Kaykaus, and Taeon gear. That gives rdm a high tier nuke set, 2 Acc pieces of gear & kiting piece of gear, Healing gear that nearly no rdm will ever spend gil on, and a low tier tp/ws set. The gear is not even remotely close to balanced. Can't think of any rdm out there that would spend the gil for Kaykaus when Vanya is on the table. the only gain would be cure pot II + 3%, hardly worth it when rdm cure 4 is already hitting 1.2k+ and the mp pool rdm has.

[Urmom]

I think you misunderstood a bit of what I was saying. It wasn't that people wouldn't bring rdm because it was less useful it was that people would refuse to bring rdm even when it was clearly the best for what needed to be done and would actually add more than those extra magics. I've seen it argued that a second sch is better just because of stratagem concerns and hoping that they can maybe land the enfeeble that definitely needs to be landed. Basically came down to would rather risk wiping and letting the mob regen a ton for a long time then have 1 less skillchain a minute or something.

The community is such right now that you could basically have an nm a permanent 30' doom aura for all non rdms and most the game would still refuse to take rdms. And that's probably not even much of an exaggeration.

As far as the ideas yeah basically making all the rdm spells targetable to party membes would be huge but not too OP. Phalanx II is interesting... since it does just as much as phalanx I don't see a problem as long as Phalanx stays the same.

Love the dia/bio

Also for dia/bio make them enhancable the same number of times regardless of tier with qd. Right now max def/att down from bio/dia is 20% so means if you have a cor dia/bio II are basically same thing as III.


I actually have always liked enspell 2s... the problem has always been potency is way too weak (seriously geo can grant a way larger meva down for all elements) and rdm needs to melee... instead what I think we can do is again like other rdm spells make it targetable and either raise the potency a ton and/or change it from meva to an element to magic def to an element ie like Gambit. Heck if it was like gambit it would be fine being self only.

[Hyrist]

Thorva, I'm flatly not interested in the posturing debate you seem to want to do with everyone who has a different viewpoint with you. I have not argued that Red Mage's front line is capable of 145 content. Quit trying to posture yourself better or more knowledgeable than others based off that accusation.

Also, it's proving that you're not reading my post in its entirety before you start replying, as you addressed Blind II's issue before this. Please read a post in its entirety before you decide to hit the "Quote" button and begin trying to reply. Point in case:

But you neglect to recall the fact that I never once said rdm under-preforms in 132 and lower content. I said because of the meta nm's and circle jobs, rdm is out on higher end content.

Where I said these together at different points of my post:

However, even you admit that up to 132 Red Mage is fairly incredible...

But the true crux is the underlined - which is the culprit of all of this: The current meta. A lot of the current meta rely upon mechanics that are fundamentally broken, have been since years ago, and are at the peak of its struggle with players now. For example: the fact that Geomancer's Debufs have no level correction function at all, due to being unresistable, is a major flaw, especially considering their max potency.

This is where I acknowledged both of your points and went on to make points that the direction you were seeking for the job wasn't necessary. Arguing that the correct path for Red Mage perhaps should be similar to Corsair while still retaining the label of 'Support'

As far as:

Please quote me where I ruled rdm versatility out. I would love to know the point where I said rdm can't cure, nuke, or deal damage. I know for a fact I never said that.

You implied it by omission, by defining Red Mage as a Buffer/Debuffer job, and then continued to list on how our other functions just don't cut it. I thank you for your clarification otherwise. We agree then that Red Mage is a support class, one in which it's buff and Debuff aspects are an important facet, but not it's only facet.

Getting back to the point, the reason why I spent so much highlighting the effectiveness of Red Mage on ~135 content is that your purpose for Red Mage at 145 is effectively to turn tail away from the course it has at ~135. To quote the previous post I made just before your reply, which it seems you did not read:

But, to touch on Temper. Spreading temper is the same as using Dia to buff our Attack. Once it becomes public grounds, Red Mage as an individual performance class suffers an indirect nerf. Instead of being the class with the highest multi-attack stacking, we instead fall behind every other class in Multi-Attack, because we become expected to give it to everyone by default. There's no point in Red Mage being in the front line at that point, you've just widened the gap by 20~26% Triple attack. You absolutely will be pigeon-holed with that. It's no different than Refresh/Haste era policies. SE is well aware on how Red Mage gets flooded with spellcasting when they're forced to single target buff people with multiple spells. This is why Inundation is a debuff, not a Buff spell as it was originally designed.

Is it selfish? Absolutely. But its selfish on the same level as saying that Natural Meditation is not default AoE, or that Warrior's Double Attack Trait, Breserk and Defender skills don't need to be AoE. Red Mage's Melee statistics are tied to its casting should not, by default mean it should always be a shared thing. If this was, in fact, a JA instead of an MA, we'd never be having this discussion on it. Temper is Red Mage's Multi-Attack JA. SE made it a spell to fit with it's stylistic history and keep with the 'Mage' motif. This is why I don't see it as wrong to keep Temper single-cast. Again, it's pretty much make or break for me at this point.

You asked me to point out where you were taking something away from Red Mage - you quite potentially wanted to take away its exclusivity on Temper, in your very first two posts on this thread. Temper II is pretty much the one thing that enables Red Mage to have any hope of being comparable in Melee post 135 (Read: after other adjustments are made). You take that away from it you pigeon-hole the class in the back line permanently. It may be a net gain for the party, but it is a severe net loss for the Red Mage who desires to be in the front lines.

Also, not sure if Triple Attack on a whole party is a good idea - one of the issues I wanted to bring up for discussions on adjustments that Red Mage would benefit from is the TP feed issue. My idea on that as a general adjustment is to have Store TP's effect calculate on the entire amount of TP generated in an attack round, balanced so that it can in-fact break the minimum per-hit limit we currently have on it. (And for the record, I don't buy the coding excuse when they turned around and coded a queuing system for Ambuscade. Important balance adjustments are worth the time investment, as I'm sure you agree.)

So, bottom line: We are not in conflict as to the state of Red Mage right now. Though, honestly I feel your obsession with the top echelon of endgame is bit much seeming the mass majority of the players out right now aren't even scratching the second tier of Escha. It's where you're trying to direct Red Mages that we disagree - that sort of discussion needs no parses as we're talking theoretical improvements, and lining it up with what is good for Red Mage right now.

And that's all I'm saying about that. I'd rather talk about the ideas - because that's the real meat of this discussion. I really don't have a negative view of you, other than you seem to be easily combative.
_________________________________________________________________

Going down some points again.

Blind II: You're missing the point of my change to the spell. I'm talking static % hard enforced miss chance. We're talking a hard check against a (let's say 15% fully merited, I like this number.) proc chance of that attack missing, regardless of accuracy/evasion difference. Akin to Blink on a debuff, that lasts for a duration, rather than having a set number of shadows that can be wiped. That would make the spell effective in any circumstance in which physical damage was a factor.

Temper II: I don't see your obsession with taking away Red Mage's personal effects for the sake of a quick gimick. This is why I said reconnect with the group. It's not 'a few'. This is one of the few things that still excite Red Mages as most who cared about the huge buff/debuff aspects of the 75 Era have moved on to other classes that appeal to them more. Do you not like Meleeing? That's the only thing I can infer from your continuous nerfing of this skill to accommodate everyone else but a Red Mage. There is no need to change this spell, at all.

Slow II: I'm talking non TP using TP attacks (the ones that function as 'normal' attacks) Given that we're aiming go push Melee back into content, speculatively (as we're both speculating as to what SE would do at this point) SE would have no ground to stand on, as Mobs are still receiving TP from incoming attacks. So much so, in fact, that we'd likely have to re-address Subtle Blow (as per my previous idea concerning that).

Raising DoT: I think you have the wrong approach here.

Let's start at the baseline: Scholars 'DoT's are effectively their Tier VI nuking line, and it's had problems since the get go (some of which required quick patching). Part of which is the fact that there can be no Two Helixes on a monster at a time. This actually cements it as "The Scholar's" Very firmly.

You can't make that assessment with Poison II. When you buff it, it goes to everyone who can use it, RDM, BLM, and DRK. Which of these three do you think will end up using? It's likely not going to be Red Mage. Why bring a RDM to cast it when your BLM can cast it in-between death casts for a small loss in damage? You'd have to tack that damage adjustment onto gifts and, honestly, I don't see where it would fit there. I can't help but think that if we want to be doing Damage over Time, we should be meleeing. That's what our enspells are for, and we already get gifts for those and have it higher than any other class. That's not an insult in the idea that our Magical DoT should be boosted, that's just the default thinking pattern I get whenever that conversation is raised. Red Mage has never really been a powerful DoT class. It just simply abused DoTs to out-survive monsters. We're going to need something changing different than Poison II to have that, and I'm stuggeling of thinking of a way to do that that doesn't outright bust a major balance mechanic.

As far as our Barspells: They're single target, so they're really not meant to be a party utility the way WHM's are. Honestly, I'd rather a stronger boost to Phalanx and Accession that and make it stack-able with Phalanx II.

Issues with things like Dia III, Bio III, and the rest of our merit spells being conflicting when we as Red Mages need to levy as much angles as we can to be party effective: Instead of having the merits force raise the cap effectivness of each spell, have it effect duration like the Dia/Bio line and/or have it simply ease the curve of dMND/dINT/Enhancing. Have Bio III and Dia III scale off of Darkness and Enfeebeling gear (this would go with the raising darkness magic rating mentioned earlier)

Fixing Enspell II's : Here's the rub. How? The obvious would be to change it so that the cap and base are effected at the time of cast. That one is obvious. But here's the deal it's never going to outweigh Enspell I's on a multi-attack format, and that's our going thing. The damage would have to be buffed pretty heavily. Then again, perhaps this is how you get your DoT buff? It already inflicts magical evasion down on the dominant element above the one of the Enspell cast, perhaps it can instead apply a powerful DoT Debuff that is maintained by initial hits (or perhaps even grows with damage). The question is whether or not that can be coded appropriately.

Gear: Standing opinion is this: Red Mage and Blue Mage should share the same Armor Pool. Period. There is literally no reason not to do it this way. The fear of Red Mage becoming overpowered is laughable in the face of where Blue Mage stands right now, and sharing the same armor pool is not going to innately make up for the differences in traits and spells that pull Blue Mage ahead of Red Mage.

There's still the matter of Red Mage's attack deficiency. I'm really thinking that the answer there is just plain Dual Wield for Red Mages, enabling better sub-job usage for those going on the front lines. Another adjustment they can do is simply nerf the attack correction form level Difference. That helps everyone but Red Mage and other low-attack classes will benefit from it more. But I'm still of the opinion that those who've invested as far as they have into the melee route from RDM do not deserved to be snubbed when making adjustments for 145+ endgame.

[Thorva]

Thorva, I'm flatly not interested in the posturing debate you seem to want to do with everyone who has a different viewpoint with you. I have not argued that Red Mage's front line is capable of 145 content. Quit trying to posture yourself better or more knowledgeable than others based off that accusation.

Also, it's proving that you're not reading my post in its entirety before you start replying, as you addressed Blind II's issue before this. Please read a post in its entirety before you decide to hit the "Quote" button and begin trying to reply. Point in case:



Where I said these together at different points of my post:



This is where I acknowledged both of your points and went on to make points that the direction you were seeking for the job wasn't necessary. Arguing that the correct path for Red Mage perhaps should be similar to Corsair while still retaining the label of 'Support'

As far as:


You implied it by omission, by defining Red Mage as a Buffer/Debuffer job, and then continued to list on how our other functions just don't cut it. I thank you for your clarification otherwise. We agree then that Red Mage is a support class, one in which it's buff and Debuff aspects are an important facet, but not it's only facet.

Getting back to the point, the reason why I spent so much highlighting the effectiveness of Red Mage on ~135 content is that your purpose for Red Mage at 145 is effectively to turn tail away from the course it has at ~135. To quote the previous post I made just before your reply, which it seems you did not read:



You asked me to point out where you were taking something away from Red Mage - you quite potentially wanted to take away its exclusivity on Temper, in your very first two posts on this thread. Temper II is pretty much the one thing that enables Red Mage to have any hope of being comparable in Melee post 135 (Read: after other adjustments are made). You take that away from it you pigeon-hole the class in the back line permanently. It may be a net gain for the party, but it is a severe net loss for the Red Mage who desires to be in the front lines.

Also, not sure if Triple Attack on a whole party is a good idea - one of the issues I wanted to bring up for discussions on adjustments that Red Mage would benefit from is the TP feed issue. My idea on that as a general adjustment is to have Store TP's effect calculate on the entire amount of TP generated in an attack round, balanced so that it can in-fact break the minimum per-hit limit we currently have on it. (And for the record, I don't buy the coding excuse when they turned around and coded a queuing system for Ambuscade. Important balance adjustments are worth the time investment, as I'm sure you agree.)

So, bottom line: We are not in conflict as to the state of Red Mage right now. Though, honestly I feel your obsession with the top echelon of endgame is bit much seeming the mass majority of the players out right now aren't even scratching the second tier of Escha. It's where you're trying to direct Red Mages that we disagree - that sort of discussion needs no parses as we're talking theoretical improvements, and lining it up with what is good for Red Mage right now.

And that's all I'm saying about that. I'd rather talk about the ideas - because that's the real meat of this discussion. I really don't have a negative view of you, other than you seem to be easily combative.
_________________________________________________________________

Going down some points again.

Blind II: You're missing the point of my change to the spell. I'm talking static % hard enforced miss chance. We're talking a hard check against a (let's say 15% fully merited, I like this number.) proc chance of that attack missing, regardless of accuracy/evasion difference. Akin to Blink on a debuff, that lasts for a duration, rather than having a set number of shadows that can be wiped. That would make the spell effective in any circumstance in which physical damage was a factor.

Temper II: I don't see your obsession with taking away Red Mage's personal effects for the sake of a quick gimick. This is why I said reconnect with the group. It's not 'a few'. This is one of the few things that still excite Red Mages as most who cared about the huge buff/debuff aspects of the 75 Era have moved on to other classes that appeal to them more. Do you not like Meleeing? That's the only thing I can infer from your continuous nerfing of this skill to accommodate everyone else but a Red Mage. There is no need to change this spell, at all.

Slow II: I'm talking non TP using TP attacks (the ones that function as 'normal' attacks) Given that we're aiming go push Melee back into content, speculatively (as we're both speculating as to what SE would do at this point) SE would have no ground to stand on, as Mobs are still receiving TP from incoming attacks. So much so, in fact, that we'd likely have to re-address Subtle Blow (as per my previous idea concerning that).

Raising DoT: I think you have the wrong approach here.

Let's start at the baseline: Scholars 'DoT's are effectively their Tier VI nuking line, and it's had problems since the get go (some of which required quick patching). Part of which is the fact that there can be no Two Helixes on a monster at a time. This actually cements it as "The Scholar's" Very firmly.

You can't make that assessment with Poison II. When you buff it, it goes to everyone who can use it, RDM, BLM, and DRK. Which of these three do you think will end up using? It's likely not going to be Red Mage. Why bring a RDM to cast it when your BLM can cast it in-between death casts for a small loss in damage? You'd have to tack that damage adjustment onto gifts and, honestly, I don't see where it would fit there. I can't help but think that if we want to be doing Damage over Time, we should be meleeing. That's what our enspells are for, and we already get gifts for those and have it higher than any other class. That's not an insult in the idea that our Magical DoT should be boosted, that's just the default thinking pattern I get whenever that conversation is raised. Red Mage has never really been a powerful DoT class. It just simply abused DoTs to out-survive monsters. We're going to need something changing different than Poison II to have that, and I'm stuggeling of thinking of a way to do that that doesn't outright bust a major balance mechanic.

As far as our Barspells: They're single target, so they're really not meant to be a party utility the way WHM's are. Honestly, I'd rather a stronger boost to Phalanx and Accession that and make it stack-able with Phalanx II.

Issues with things like Dia III, Bio III, and the rest of our merit spells being conflicting when we as Red Mages need to levy as much angles as we can to be party effective: Instead of having the merits force raise the cap effectivness of each spell, have it effect duration like the Dia/Bio line and/or have it simply ease the curve of dMND/dINT/Enhancing. Have Bio III and Dia III scale off of Darkness and Enfeebeling gear (this would go with the raising darkness magic rating mentioned earlier)

Fixing Enspell II's : Here's the rub. How? The obvious would be to change it so that the cap and base are effected at the time of cast. That one is obvious. But here's the deal it's never going to outweigh Enspell I's on a multi-attack format, and that's our going thing. The damage would have to be buffed pretty heavily. Then again, perhaps this is how you get your DoT buff? It already inflicts magical evasion down on the dominant element above the one of the Enspell cast, perhaps it can instead apply a powerful DoT Debuff that is maintained by initial hits (or perhaps even grows with damage). The question is whether or not that can be coded appropriately.

Gear: Standing opinion is this: Red Mage and Blue Mage should share the same Armor Pool. Period. There is literally no reason not to do it this way. The fear of Red Mage becoming overpowered is laughable in the face of where Blue Mage stands right now, and sharing the same armor pool is not going to innately make up for the differences in traits and spells that pull Blue Mage ahead of Red Mage.

There's still the matter of Red Mage's attack deficiency. I'm really thinking that the answer there is just plain Dual Wield for Red Mages, enabling better sub-job usage for those going on the front lines. Another adjustment they can do is simply nerf the attack correction form level Difference. That helps everyone but Red Mage and other low-attack classes will benefit from it more. But I'm still of the opinion that those who've invested as far as they have into the melee route from RDM do not deserved to be snubbed when making adjustments for 145+ endgame.

Just going to leave it at this, you either don't pay attention or have zero clue what you are talking about. I have covered things many times over in the thread and you still try to argue the exact same thing I covered and in some points you are literally arguing against me on things we agree on. First off, I did read your entire post. If I didn't address it, it was because it wasn't worth addressing. If i did address it out of order, dear Lord the world will end... Again if I don't cover it, it wasn't worth my time.

Starting at the top,

Using the adjustments I have proposed does nothing to change it in 135 content except possibly bring it into a low man situation in placement of other jobs, again this only gives new options doesn't change the dynamics of the game. It would not change the job play style, it only means cast different spells or accession ones we already have.

Blind, I am not missing the point. I flat out said it is entirely too weak and needs a severe buff, again if anything I agreed with you. For some reason it seems like you and I weren't in agreement but we were, the current blind II is utterly usesless and would need a % based system. Static numbers don't work with todays content. We need more % based enfeebles.

Temper being target-able can not, and will not indirectly nerf rdm. It will give rdm a reason to be in the pt, if you can't hit things now, it won't matter if you can't hit them assuming you can target temper on pt. Just because you can cast temper on the party does NOT remove the exclusivity of it being a rdm needed buff. It enhances the need for rdm because other DD would need the spell. Further more you can still cast it on yourself and swing a sword. This spell does not close the gap on rdm being rdm only spell. This goes back to put rdm up against a blu, drk, war, with or without temper the spell being used on rdm is so pathetically useless rdm literally has no use using it for itself except only in apex or solo events. That is literally the only time a rdm is being used as a melee, why not be able to give the buffs to jobs that have innate attack and solid gear options. I repeat, this does NOT remove exclusivity, it only offers it to others players as a rdm exclusive buff. It does not stop rdm from swinging the sword in a group, this coupled ws spams and red lotus blade creates the fusion link in sc for much harder hitting jobs to close 5-6 step light sc with higher levels of tp for the closing ws. It doesn't stop rdm from melee, it doesn't remove the exclusivity, it literally changes nothing but the desire to bring in a rdm. Also, as I said, either lower the potency of temper if giving both double and triple attack, or make temper II double attack and offer the option to cast on party similar to the current phalanx II system.

Slow II, I see where you are going with that, and would possibly need to add in a reduces tp gain on the spell itself. This can carry over with brd buffs as well, (infact a lot of the same ideas could be reworked for brd)

Raising DoT can actually be much more simple than just raising the dmg, Dia and Bio go all the way up to 5 in the .dat files and nm's as old as abyssea have cast them, giving us dia/bio 4 and new tier of aga would give us that new -def/-m.def -attk/-m.attk set up. Would just need a little extra coding, but it removes the need for the merit point clash. This goes the same with poison, we don't need to buff poison 2 with poison 3 is in the system possibly give poison 3 some level of plague? Maybe that would be the way to go and wouldn't be a need to mess with the tp feed on slow II, this would give a reason to bring rdm to mitigate some of that tp AoE dmg and still have a scaling DoT for ilvl content, nothing too strong but something higher than what we have.
Rdm enfeeble tiers are still on 75 cap with the exceptions of addle, break, distract and frazzle. Addle overwirtes pinning nocturne on brd which isn't nice to brd and distract/frazzle/addle all scale wonderfully but anything pre-cap lift won't come close to scaling in a sense of what would be ideal. Again I know sch and blm deal more dmg than rdm, this is why I wasn't being that guy that says, well rdm needs t6 nukes and helix 2 that does 10k/tick, I scaled the dmg down to what I feel is a fitting level. 400-800 tick DoT wouldn't be overpowered in the least.

Fixing enpell II, I literally couldn't give a perfect idea on this one. Allowing it to proc on multi-attack could help it, also potency on time of cast as you state would help both the spell as well as rdm white dmg. Maybe add in secondary stats like sch stormsurge? Or like you said add in some form of debuff, maybe even just add in elemental DoT, burn/choke/rasp etc, like I said. I would never have the top idea on that one, I just know the current enspell II never get used unless on accident.
Urmom came up with this one that seems like a decent idea as well.

I actually have always liked enspell 2s... the problem has always been potency is way too weak (seriously geo can grant a way larger meva down for all elements) and rdm needs to melee... instead what I think we can do is again like other rdm spells make it targetable and either raise the potency a ton and/or change it from meva to an element to magic def to an element ie like Gambit. Heck if it was like gambit it would be fine being self only.

Gear, we both agree something needs to change there, although depending on what other buffs SE would actually be willing to do in the DoT/enspell dept, giving rdm native dual wield could be a bad idea if it allowed us to /war. Would just tip the balance in rdm favor due to enspells, higher attack (than we currently have) and DoT.

I 100% agree the gear options need to be fixed, rdm has always been dart board gear decision. Rdm is a front line sword mage, there is literally zero reason why it can't wear all light armor.

Honestly the only thing we actually disagreed on was the temper. I know you feel it takes away from rdm, but I think if we put up a poll on who would like to see rdm be able to cast at least a 15-20% double attack temper on pt we would get more yes than no, then the poll beyond that would be to ask if rdm casting on temper would take rdm out of the melee spot. If rdm is already in the pt and casting temper, there is no reason it shouldn't be able to be melee unless the mob eva is just too high.

I think you misunderstood a bit of what I was saying. It wasn't that people wouldn't bring rdm because it was less useful it was that people would refuse to bring rdm even when it was clearly the best for what needed to be done and would actually add more than those extra magics. I've seen it argued that a second sch is better just because of stratagem concerns and hoping that they can maybe land the enfeeble that definitely needs to be landed. Basically came down to would rather risk wiping and letting the mob regen a ton for a long time then have 1 less skillchain a minute or something.

No, I understood clearly what you meant, that is why I am trying to come up with rdm exclusive ideas that would give people a reason to look at rdm again. Nobody looked at sch before they found an exploit on spamming those self made, distance, sc. I don't want exploitable ideas, and I don't want an end-all God level job. I actually can't stand God level jobs/games. They bore me and I quit playing them. I just want something exclusive to rdm that would give people a reason to look at breaking the in-the-box thinking and allow more than 5 jobs to play in endgame content.