Game/Job balance suggestions

[Cesil]

Heh..I want to come back to this game full time (I play it a little atm) and my boyfriend wants to come back, but upon hearing that ninja can't really tank anything..I dunno.

I was watching my friend fight some of the new end game bosses and they were using a bunch of BST and mages...that seems kind of silly. Why alienate jobs still and do this? Well anyway, if that is indeed the way it is..I hope the devs will incorporate melee again and make all tanks useful.

[Helldemon]

I think they just need to make melee only give about 2 tp to the mob per swing just like the way mobs attacks only give that much. That alone should cut down on tp moves quite a bit. They'll still get to 1k fairly quickly even with only 2 melee but iirc how mobs tp'd depended on both how quickly they are taking damage/how much tp they have. Right now with 2 melee with capped haste mobs are perma 3k tp. Not sure SE could do away with the tp system since melee/bst pet's also rely on it so it's probably connected? Though, if SE uncapped Subtle Blow and just gave all jobs 100 subtle blow in traits, I guess that would work. They would still have to add regain to every single mob and decide how much each should get.

[Hyrist]

A friend in game said it best: The imbalance right now often leaves you feeling like you're mercing for your own ls--you're playing on the effective jobs, to get the task done so that some guy can join and lot a piece of gear and drop--and he's content to do just that.

And this is where we get existential...

See, this is where I get labeled an Altruist. This idea of "mercing for friends." And this complaint that "Pop's are expensive." They're pretty selfish arguments. If you don't like the gameplay so much that you're overburdened by helping others, doesn't that betray the idea of playing the game? Or is taking the time to help people feel like that much of a waste of time that it saps the very reason for being. If that's the case, wouldn't a single player game like something of the Souls series suit your play desires better?

The game is not so hard that you absolutely cannot play the class you want. Yes, often those who chose to be more flexible end up sticking to the classes needed the most, or that make things the easiest. But isn't that the reason for leveling those classes to begin with? Or was it simply the selfish desire to exploit the existence of those Meta classes to get what you want out of the game quicker?

This is why I stick to one class, and have that one class be a Hybird. There's no question of my passion and my flexibility being in conflict. My desires and my limits are one and the same, and are defined directly by my choice. There's no room for error of interpretation of will there. I can do a lot on Red Mage, I make the choice not to be the Main healer as my only preference against what I'm capable of, and that's mainly out of hesitation to take that responsibility. If RDM could still tank effectively, I'd do that too to help people. Sure, there are 'better jobs' but in my experience those 'better jobs' are often out there for their own sake. They're after the bottom line playing those jobs to gear up what they really want to play. Which to me feels counter-intuitive. I'm playing the job I want to play and I endeavor to help with it.

I deal with the limits of the class because I enjoy the gameplay of it that much more, which means going to help others isn't 'mercing for your friends'. That sort of label isn't even a consideration, even in the (rare) instances where I'm flat out carrying.

So I can't get on board with the 'Oh but the pops are expensive' 'Oh it feels like mercing' arguments because I disagree with the base philosophy behind those statements. That tells me you're not playing something you genuinely enjoy, be it the game, the class or the company you play it with. And that enjoyment is dependent on a bottom line that seems selfish on the outside. I just can't, personally, abide by that train of thought, not for myself. It was the fact that I had to subscribe by that train of thought to get by back in the older days of the game that actually drove me away form it.

Thankfully, there are ways around that now for the majority of the game and goals I have in mind, so I don't have to. And now I can work on my character to make him more powerful so that I can take that growing power to help others. That's an ideal game for me, as I love the concept of character and team building.

[OmnysValefor]

See, this is where I get labeled an Altruist. This idea of "mercing for friends." And this complaint that "Pop's are expensive." They're pretty selfish arguments. If you don't like the gameplay so much that you're overburdened by helping others, doesn't that betray the idea of playing the game? Or is taking the time to help people feel like that much of a waste of time that it saps the very reason for being. If that's the case, wouldn't a single player game like something of the Souls series suit your play desires better?

You misunderstand. He wasn't saying that he minded "mercing" for friends (as in, helping ls-mates get the gear they wanted) or that he didn't want them in the alliance but it's simply impractical. He was being critical of the game in that moment, and perhaps critical of people unwilling to level anything else because yes, there are some amazingly simple NMs that are made substantially harder if you take bad jobs.

Losing is no fun, I'm sure we've all had a fight or two where after a few wipes, people were just ready to log off, sometimes people fake-dc (whether they admit it or not). Winning is fun. You don't get a special reward for banging your head against a wall knowing that there's a better strategy but stubbornly refusing to try it.

The game is not so hard that you absolutely cannot play the class you want. Yes, often those who chose to be more flexible end up sticking to the classes needed the most, or that make things the easiest. But isn't that the reason for leveling those classes to begin with? Or was it simply the selfish desire to exploit the existence of those Meta classes to get what you want out of the game quicker?

I play PLD because I love it. When it was practically useless during late aby/vw/early adoulin, I did the things on PLD that it was still good for. Supertanking, or a safety net on some bosses, and voking the VW boss while the melee tossed up temps to protect themselves. On content where PLD had no valid use (and there was a lot), I went something else.

In early Delve, I was wanted again because I could take half the zone to a corner somewhere so the group could deal with killing the bosses which, since we were pressed for time, was a necesary strategy.

I did not play BST in Aby because it was overpowered, I played BST because it worked exceptionally well on some fights and allowed me to help my friends get things they wanted in a very effective fashion. "This boss charms? He can't charm Falcorr".

I started playing GEO without the slightest inkling for how potent it was. My group at the time had a PLD that was better geared than me and I felt terrible for being on PLD while he was standing there on BLM with a nice pld hanging in his mog house. I do not love GEO because it's overpowered, I actually think GEO is reasonably powered and that Bard needs an overhaul and COR needs some buffs.

I don't play classes to exploit anything, I play classes to help my friends win. I've had moments in this game where we won something when we didn't really expect to--like when I ended up monk-tanking charby or my very first Byakko which started as a profound mess--but that doesn't mean that I went to future charbys with the intention of tanking as monk or Byakkos and told the nin to pop Byakko again without shadows.

This is why I stick to one class, and have that one class be a Hybird. There's no question of my passion and my flexibility being in conflict. My desires and my limits are one and the same, and are defined directly by my choice. There's no room for error of interpretation of will there. I can do a lot on Red Mage, I make the choice not to be the Main healer as my only preference against what I'm capable of, and that's mainly out of hesitation to take that responsibility. If RDM could still tank effectively, I'd do that too to help people. Sure, there are 'better jobs' but in my experience those 'better jobs' are often out there for their own sake. They're after the bottom line playing those jobs to gear up what they really want to play. Which to me feels counter-intuitive. I'm playing the job I want to play and I endeavor to help with it.

See, I wouldn't call you flexible at all, if you stick to one job regardless of the circumstance. There are times that you're weighing your group down. I don't let myself do that. Like I said, when PLD had a valid use, I went PLD--when it didn't, I went something else. When someone else had a better PLD, I was quite happy to go something else. Now? My paladin is top-notch (still needs some HQs) but if the synergy of the party works better with someone else, or some other job tanking while I play GEO or something else.. I'll do that. I'm not exploiting anything, I'm being a member of a team.

[Hyrist]

There's a lot of back and forth language here and I need to clear it up.

First off, Exploit in and of itself is not a negative term, it just has the expectation of it in the context of gaming. The mechanics surrounding around GEO, and the verb of you taking advantage of those mechanics, that is the very definition of exploit. It's the right word to use there. You don't need to resort to exploiting the most effective method to 'be a team player' and it's the wrong word usage to imply otherwise.

And while you wouldn't call me as a person flexible, I wouldn't disagree with your impression. I said that my flexibility is clearly defined. The roles I can do is broader than say, Monk. In that manner I am flexible. You're indicating that I am inflexible because I refuse to play other jobs. That too is also correct. Neither one of these statements are wrong. I can do more roles, but I'm not as effective at each role as if I were to say play a specialist. But never am I playing something that players come to rely upon that I actually dislike or grow to dislike either, which as much, if not more of an issue in groups. The whole "Pigeon hole" problem that comes with leveling multiple jobs, but getting stuck on one.

To expect a player to forfeit their right to play class they enjoy, simply to play a class that's more effective, that's a problem more than just 'weighing down'. The game is mean to be played, not worked.

The difference here is expectation. If you found GEO enjoyable and you play to help others, you lose nothing. You enjoy yourself. But if I, personally, were to know that you do not like playing GEO, and heard someone place the expectation of you to play it simply because you have it leveled. I'd voice my protest. To me, that is just as valid of being a team member as someone willing to flex over to another class they enjoy.

The only time I would say that sort of expectation on effectiveness is valid, is if you are actually paying someone (Gil) to clear content, aka, mercing.

In the end, I will take a passionate player out of Meta, get them through and make it work, than someone who begrudges or is even just dispassionate about what they're playing, even if it nets me a higher winrate. Because in the end, what you're going to remember is whether or not you had a good time. And while you say "Losing is no fun", I'd actually contest that. There are plenty of players that wipe or lose to content all day laughing their buts off and having a great time. And there are those who would rather struggle harder to win on something they enjoy and identify with. That special reward you get for winning a piece of content without using the 'best method'. It's the feeling of accomplishment. This is especially true when you're doing it with a group that's all playing Jobs they strongly enjoy and identify with. It's actually a fundamental principle behind any raid groups I run - especially outside of FFXI (FFXIV in particular).

To me, I've had so much fun in my time in FFXI with making outside strategies work, that I find that just a clear cut meta that pretty much just crushes content to be rather cheapening. I don't expect that feeling to reflect other people's feelings, however. But I do feel that levying any sort of expectations on others, especially in a game's twilight, is the wrong mindset.

If you'd rather play for yourself and be conscientious of yours and others 'time' above their enjoyment, or define your enjoyment by simply being time efficient, that's your prerogative. But I feel that enforcing this perspective as the norm is heavily counterproductive to the overall health of the game.

[OmnysValefor]

There's a lot of back and forth language here and I need to clear it up.

First off, Exploit in and of itself is not a negative term, it just has the expectation of it in the context of gaming. The mechanics surrounding around GEO, and the verb of you taking advantage of those mechanics, that is the very definition of exploit. It's the right word to use there. You don't need to resort to exploiting the most effective method to 'be a team player' and it's the wrong word usage to imply otherwise.

Exploit does typically have negative connotations and since you've been abrasive towards my opinion on these things, I took the negative implication.

No, maybe you don't need to be leveraging the most effective method to be a team player but you should bring some versatility. I'm 100% sure others in your group love certain jobs but are willing to change maybe to lesser-loved jobs and maybe to jobs they don't even really like.

FFXI and FFXIV (and a few other mmos) offer the capability to play different classes on the same character. Other games, like WoW, merely offer different "specs" or "trees" but the way these change the class is night and day. WoW's Retribution Paladin is almost a different class than WoW's protection Paladin. Players often play different roles on the same character and even different characters on the same account.

I find GEO (and bard!) very very boring. It's cool bridging the gap for players, or providing the protections. It's cool that, even though I don't like the job, I come very prepared and am usually the last mage standing in the event of a wipe. The win is fun, and getting my group the win is fun and that's reason enough for me to try other jobs.

Melee RDM right now struggles from a severe lack of adequate gearing options but there are other jobs you might like that would be great for when your party needed a potent melee.

To expect a player to forfeit their right to play class they enjoy, simply to play a class that's more effective, that's a problem more than just 'weighing down'. The game is mean to be played, not worked.

In my opinion, to want loot from an array of content that you can't adequately assist with is a real problem, and if you try other jobs, you might even actually find you like them. I also readily admit, and have admitted, that the blame is not entirely with the players (those that embrace the meta or disparage it). We should see wider diversity in jobs present, but we don't. I'm grinding out RUN right now, because there are some things that it just tanks better than PLD and the are other things (plenty) where the tanking is mostly equal, but Rayke/Gambit are invaluable. Yes, I am presently always comparing my HQ PLD to my NQ RUN and it's a little frustrating.

If you'd rather play for yourself and be conscientious of yours and others 'time' above their enjoyment, or define your enjoyment by simply being time efficient, that's your prerogative. But I feel that enforcing this perspective as the norm is heavily counterproductive to the overall health of the game.

More abrasiveness.

[Olor]

I will say it would just be nicer to see a greater diversity of jobs useful in content. I'd also like the playerbase to be more fun oriented, and for me "fun oriented" means taking people on the jobs they want to play.

Yes it does make things harder sometimes but the times I remember are not really the times where things are the perfect setup, but when friends tackled things together and overcame the odds.

There are real design flaws in the current paradigm and those design flaws are hurting the game.

I don't blame folks who have a lot of jobs leveled and a lot of decent gear who can clear things for doing things in the way that makes the most sense for them.

Still, I think that because of the lack of general knowledge about things and the hesitancy to fail that the game is not very friendly for a lot of players.

If jobs were more broadly useful this would break down somewhat, and if mechanics were more transparent. Honestly, how is a new player going to know about spell macros? How are they going to know they need a fast cast, duration and potency set for bard songs? Are we helping these players succeed?

I love how deep and complicated FFXI but at this stage of the game's life what it needs more than anything is community and memory of what truly made this game special - overcoming challenges with our friends.

One of my fondest memories of this game was on my second character - her highest leveled job was whm... like 31 or 33 or something, and some LS mates in their 50s died in Quicksand caves. I had never been there but I had the Altepa telepoint, so I bought a teleport, and went off to save them, the whm that teleported me joined, and we raised everyone just before their timers ran down. It was epic. It was ridiculous, but someone raising you when the sand bats in the dunes sniped you on the way to lizard camp was what made this game special and a lot of that has been lost.

Anyway, rambling, but I think we'd all probably like to see a bit more balance, but the more important thing is having fun when we do play - being generous and kind, and having a good time.

[Hyrist]

You can consider what I say abrasive, that's fine by me Omnys. I may disapprove of the mentality but it holds no bearing of my opinion on you as an individual. I do feel that having to point out situations in which you feel offended, however, distracts from the point of things. I don't know if this is an intentional red herring or argumentative leverage or you simply wish to call out what you find offensive, but it does not lend anything to the disagreement.

In my opinion, to want loot from an array of content that you can't adequately assist with is a real problem.

Let's not confuse adequacy with efficiency. To be adequate at anything in this game, you have but to clear it. The vast majority of this content does not require the meta that players who do enforce efficiency want to imply. Tiers 1 and the vast majority of 2 of all Esha NMs can be done with sub-optimal jobs and sub optimum compositions. They can, and have, been defeated by compositions lacking any of the 'best' currently in the meta.

So I feel you're stating a moot opinion here. There are no jobs that can't 'adequately' assist. The problem is the level of difficulty disparity between the optimal jobs and those that have fallen behind in efficiency. Nothing more.

I also readily admit, and have admitted, that the blame is not entirely with the players (those that embrace the meta or disparage it).

We're not disagreeing here. However you seem willing to argue down any responsibility on the unwelcoming atmosphere that many players create by embracing the meta to the point of neglect of other classes.

We should see wider diversity in jobs present, but we don't.

And I feel that it's our responsibility to not be so harsh on those who are attempting diversity, and seeking methods of improving its effectiveness, both in balance recommendations, and through use of current mechanics.

I'm grinding out RUN right now, because there are some things that it just tanks better than PLD and the are other things (plenty) where the tanking is mostly equal, but Rayke/Gambit are invaluable. Yes, I am presently always comparing my HQ PLD to my NQ RUN and it's a little frustrating.

To which I have to question your philosophy again. You're playing a game in a way that frustrates you. To me, that not only devalues the game for you, but devalues the experience of those you are playing with. A person who dislikes the job they are playing are as noticeable as a job that's not properly geared. Excitement and boredom are both infectious - which is why I question the overall effectiveness of pressing efficiency to such levels. Enjoyment is the purpose of this game, not the loot, in my understanding on how pastimes are supposed to operate.

I'm 100% sure others in your group love certain jobs but are willing to change maybe to lesser-loved jobs and maybe to jobs they don't even really like.

You're absolutely right, and I take up the exact argument with them as well. If they play a class they dislike, I flatly discourage them from doing it, especially in any group I lead. If there is a way of making a composition work containing jobs in my group everyone enjoys - then I will use that above the optimum. 100% of the time, the mood of the event in question is higher by a marked amount.

No, maybe you don't need to be leveraging the most effective method to be a team player but you should bring some versatility.

Melee RDM right now struggles from a severe lack of adequate gearing options but there are other jobs you might like that would be great for when your party needed a potent melee.

You seem to make the presumption that Melee is all I do. This would be incorrect. As I said before, Red Mage in and of itself is a highly versatile class. Healing sets, nuking sets, enfeebeling, enhancing, melee - I work on them all. A Red Mage is no less versatile than other mage Hybrids in this regard, with the standing exception of AoE power. The trade off for that, however, is how quickly a Red Mage can switch gears. I can show up to a group in Melee gear, but swap to healing or nuking instantly and not have to wait on a cooldown.

Also, your presumption an Red Mage's accessibility to effective Melee gear is a bit off. I can, with my current gear, hit all T1 Escha mobs just fine, and I wouldn't call myself decently geared yet. I'm currently below Carmine levels of Accuracy. I honestly don't seek to melee really past that point, with the exception of a few Tier 2s and potentially Sinister Reign. Most Red Mages don't, iirc. However, back on point: the situation isn't even remotely severe. I acknowledge that it exists, however. But it has never existed to the hyperbole players have pushed upon the class in the history in the game. And while our best gearing point poi of that was when Escha Sky, was the highest loot table, it's still quite favorable.

That said, when accuracy or danger in the front-line is too much of a trouble, I can hop to the back-line and assist there. Sadly that's not true for most classes that can Melee. Red Mage has the advantage of its extensive toolkit at its disposal.

Finding others of similar playstyle to your own, or that get along with your own plastyle is really the only requirement here, however. I don't want players to feel dejected from the game simply because their class is out of Meta, especially when the can get really far when they do put effort in.

As far as me personally...

..and if you try other jobs, you might even actually find you like them.

I have, and I really don't, sadly. Nothing has captivated me the way Red Mage does. I tried hard to like Blue Mage. It felt wrong back in the 75 Era and seeing it preform and picturing me there actually makes me feel a bit off - like it's a cheap knockoff of what I really want to do. Dancer was meh at best. Dark Knight just... no.

Ninja, Paladin, and Rune Fencer are the only remaining hybrids (melee casters) with remote draw to them, and frankly it's only because they're tanks, and that's the one role I can't touch on with RDM. (Except when people start dieing, but I don't count survival tanking. I can't keep hate well enough.)

Any other class archtype? {No Thanks.} That's what I play other games for.

[OmnysValefor]

You can consider what I say abrasive, that's fine by me Omnys. I may disapprove of the mentality but it holds no bearing of my opinion on you as an individual. I do feel that having to point out situations in which you feel offended, however, distracts from the point of things. I don't know if this is an intentional red herring or argumentative leverage or you simply wish to call out what you find offensive, but it does not lend anything to the disagreement.

Meh, it might be just be but I have a difficult time having a conversation who shows blatant disrespect to the other person.

I am not trying to flame you or to disparage you in any fashion now or at any point in this thread.

Let's not confuse adequacy with efficiency. To be adequate at anything in this game, you have but to clear it. The vast majority of this content does not require the meta that players who do enforce efficiency want to imply. Tiers 1 and the vast majority of 2 of all Esha NMs can be done with sub-optimal jobs and sub optimum compositions. They can, and have, been defeated by compositions lacking any of the 'best' currently in the meta.

That's not true though. If you carry a melee through content that they don't have the accuracy to hit, were they adequate for it? No, being adequate means contributing a fair amount, whether it be in healing, tanking, or damage-done.

We're not disagreeing here. However you seem willing to argue down any responsibility on the unwelcoming atmosphere that many players create by embracing the meta to the point of neglect of other classes.

I just more take the attitude that if we wait for things to change, we'll be waiting a long time. I can both clear content with my efficient group and come here and keep reminding SE that balance and mechanics are severely broken.

To which I have to question your philosophy again. You're playing a game in a way that frustrates you. To me, that not only devalues the game for you, but devalues the experience of those you are playing with. A person who dislikes the job they are playing are as noticeable as a job that's not properly geared. Excitement and boredom are both infectious - which is why I question the overall effectiveness of pressing efficiency to such levels. Enjoyment is the purpose of this game, not the loot, in my understanding on how pastimes are supposed to operate.

Playing RUN doesn't frustrate me, but I can understand why you read it that way. I didn't finish my thought and I don't know why. I must have gotten distracted. My apologies. It's frustrating to try to respect RUN for what it is when presently, there's not a whole lot of fights that bringing my PLD for just doesn't feel like the better option. I also don't fully understand some aspects of RUN.

You're absolutely right, and I take up the exact argument with them as well. If they play a class they dislike, I flatly discourage them from doing it, especially in any group I lead. If there is a way of making a composition work containing jobs in my group everyone enjoys - then I will use that above the optimum. 100% of the time, the mood of the event in question is higher by a marked amount.

I don't know, there seems to be two modes in XI. You can either steamroll content or struggle with it. Sometimes, even the optimum setup is still only a chance to win. I kill some things that I don't have to bring a Burtgang paladin to but--at the same time--why wouldn't I? Why not make it easier on my friends.

That's probably an important difference between you and I and I'm not trying to say anything badly about you with this: I get enjoyment out of doing as much as I can for the group. Doing everything I can to make sure that we win. Your enjoyment is different, you don't mind a struggle if it means the outset is more fun. I guess once I've killed an NM one or five times, the battle itself stops being fun.

You seem to make the presumption that Melee is all I do. This would be incorrect. As I said before, Red Mage in and of itself is a highly versatile class. Healing sets, nuking sets, enfeebeling, enhancing, melee - I work on them all. A Red Mage is no less versatile than other mage Hybrids in this regard, with the standing exception of AoE power. The trade off for that, however, is how quickly a Red Mage can switch gears. I can show up to a group in Melee gear, but swap to healing or nuking instantly and not have to wait on a cooldown.

Also, your presumption an Red Mage's accessibility to effective Melee gear is a bit off. I can, with my current gear, hit all T1 Escha mobs just fine, and I wouldn't call myself decently geared yet. I'm currently below Carmine levels of Accuracy. I honestly don't seek to melee really past that point, with the exception of a few Tier 2s and potentially Sinister Reign. Most Red Mages don't, iirc. However, back on point: the situation isn't even remotely severe. I acknowledge that it exists, however. But it has never existed to the hyperbole players have pushed upon the class in the history in the game. And while our best gearing point poi of that was when Escha Sky, was the highest loot table, it's still quite favorable.

That said, when accuracy or danger in the front-line is too much of a trouble, I can hop to the back-line and assist there. Sadly that's not true for most classes that can Melee. Red Mage has the advantage of its extensive toolkit at its disposal.

I believe you said before that you don't heal on RDM, as a personal choice and I don't blame you. Healing is probably RDM's weakest role right now. While I don't think very highly of RDM melee, a melee RDM is only possibly slower. It probably won't lead to a wipe, though it might lead to a timeout.

You made your affinity for melee RDM known and I assumed since you still talked about versatility that you were also nuking. If the boss can be enfeebled, and you have an RDM there, it's an RDM you want enfeebling.

I am aware of RDM's hypothetical versatility as I said before when I said that if SE makes RDM too good at too many aspects, the dynamics of the class could make it so that an RDM/DRK is only a separate macro book away from being useful on the frontline or the backline. SCH is unlikely to be able to hop between roles mid fight effectively due to stratagems and BLU has a 1 minute cooldown and spell points on it. It also probably wants to change weapons when its role changes (though an RDM would too).

If RDM was offered better melee gear or better at healing, it could freely switch at no cost to its performance other than an inferior sub job.

As I've said, that's the problem with RDM. Different RDMs want it to be great at different things and some RDMs want it to be great at everything simultaneously. When Scholar and Rune Fencer were announced, there were several RDMs saying "RDM should have these things" each time.

I don't know what kind of content you're clearing as a whole but you mention being able to hit all Escha T1s. Is that pretty much what you're clearing? No judgment either way but when talking about RDM accuracy issues, I'm thinking a bit higher where even focused melee have some problems hitting.

As for rdm tanking? You might give RDM/BLU a shot. I LOVE PLD/BLU and love RUN/BLU. You will probably (I don't know) need time to establish hate but between RDM's fast cast and always having Haste II, this shouldn't be that bad. Jettataura and Geist Wall are your bread and butter. Soporofic, Sheep Song, and Stinking Gas are also good. All but Jettataura are aoe but they do no damage (even if they do randomly land) so you run no risk of waking sleeping mobs.

I'd try to design sets that I was PDT capped even while casting. Unmoving Collar +1's 10 Enmity is a great piece.

For a tanking set I'd probably start with this. If I'm remembering the stats on these items right, this is above 50% PDT (assuming 6% dark ring, allowing some flux) and capping MDT could be done with other slots. Have several sets though because sometimes MDT is not an important consideration.

Mafic Cudgel*3 / Genbu Shield*1
??? / Twilight Toruqe*2 / Genmei Earring / ???
??? / ??? / Dark Ring / Defending Ring
??? / Flume Belt / ??? / ??? (Medium's Sabots, maybe?)

1. If you can get a group for Escha Genbu, get that shield. Defense on shields matters more than other pieces of gear. It affects how much the shield blocks for. Granted, you're not going to block often, but, when you do, you want to block more. Otherwise old Genbu's shield is fine. Genmei earring also comes from new Genbu and is -2% PDT.

2. If you can get a +1 Loricate torque, more power to you.

3. I know, you're probably thinking "RDM's club skill is terrible", but most of the time my PLD's accuracy is terrible. Survival above Accuracy.

I also have no idea how well an RDM/RUN or RDM/PLD (inferior, but Sentinel) would hold hate.

Are you going to kill anything big with it? Probably not since damage mitigation (relevant dt capping/resisting) is core to tanking nowadays, while maximizing other stats like hp, enmty, etc.

You clearly play for different reasons than I do. Neither are necessary wrong but sometimes we can be oil and water.

[Hyrist]

I am not trying to flame you or to disparage you in any fashion now or at any point in this thread.

And it is not you as a person I have any qualms with. Litterally at all. As you said, oil and water. I simply don't agree with effiency playstyle. I don't like effect I've seen it have on people over the years. I've seen it turn people into something terrible and I can't agree with what it does even on the passive level.

That's not true though. If you carry a melee through content that they don't have the accuracy to hit, were they adequate for it? No, being adequate means contributing a fair amount, whether it be in healing, tanking, or damage-done.

Again, the only measurement for success of a group is pass/fail. A person being carried is the issue of a player's preparation and balance. It's best to title it as a semantics debate and leave it at that, but here's the mental breakdown from my perspective so we don't confuse one another.

Adequate - Meets the pass/fail check.
Worthwhile - A subjective value above Adaquate where the performance is deemed welcome among their peers.
Optimal - Known as the best combination among the local meta.

What you're arguing for, in my view, isn't adequate, it's worthwhile.

I just more take the attitude that if we wait for things to change, we'll be waiting a long time. I can both clear content with my efficient group and come here and keep reminding SE that balance and mechanics are severely broken.

While you do that, I'm encouraging those to explore the lesser end of the broken mechanics to fully flush out once shining parts of off meta classes, and what unique aspects of these jobs were/are attractive and how to make them a highlight of the class. The more the class is explored, the more accurate feedback we can give on that per-class basis. Meanwhile doing so also means players play the jobs they're truly passionate about more. To be flat out honest, the most the Melee group has to do right now is skillchain, which means any two melee that can do it consistently, can be worthwhile.

Playing RUN doesn't frustrate me, but I can understand why you read it that way. I didn't finish my thought and I don't know why. I must have gotten distracted. My apologies. It's frustrating to try to respect RUN for what it is when presently, there's not a whole lot of fights that bringing my PLD for just doesn't feel like the better option. I also don't fully understand some aspects of RUN.

Ah, my mistake for reading then. The case in point, however is that I'd still pick up the argument with you of playing something you dislike.

I don't know, there seems to be two modes in XI. You can either steamroll content or struggle with it. Sometimes, even the optimum setup is still only a chance to win. I kill some things that I don't have to bring a Burtgang paladin to but--at the same time--why wouldn't I? Why not make it easier on my friends.

If you took your paladin to owning a Burtgang, you obviously enjoy it. There's no conflict here. The conflict is making it an expectation that you're always the one 'taking it for the team'. I won't do that and won't expect anyone else to do that. If and when I find another class that I genuinely like and find worth the investment to gear, then that adds to what I do. A job's effectiveness alone cannot be the sole reason to play it. There has to be an adequate measure of enjoyment in it too, or you risk draining a person's passion for the game/group/activity and losing them - which is not only bad for that person, if playing a job they enjoyed more would have gotten them to stay, but demoralizing to your group, especially if that optimal class was a clutch one for your composition.

That's probably an important difference between you and I and I'm not trying to say anything badly about you with this: I get enjoyment out of doing as much as I can for the group. Doing everything I can to make sure that we win. Your enjoyment is different, you don't mind a struggle if it means the outset is more fun. I guess once I've killed an NM one or five times, the battle itself stops being fun.

I feel as if I derive more enjoyment from taking something that is initially a struggle, and refine it through teamwork and tactics. This also makes it more fun as the class and group progresses both statistically, and in comfort with each other, to revisit and apply what we've learned additionally. To crush something with overwhelming force means there is no real refinement process: The fight becomes routine much quicker, the game's fun burns out faster.

This is no mean to be insulting, but I liken it to playing a game with Cheat Codes on. Sure, you get through faster, you get to the end and can move onto the next level - but you're done and it doesn't feel as fun as when you struggled through the game without them.

Case in point. If you ever say, get laid up sick or have time on your hands with an emulator... try to beat the original Contra without the Konami code. Its an entirely different experience.


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(( making a break as this is now two conversations))

I believe you said before that you don't heal on RDM, as a personal choice and I don't blame you. Healing is probably RDM's weakest role right now. While I don't think very highly of RDM melee, a melee RDM is only possibly slower. It probably won't lead to a wipe, though it might lead to a timeout.

Actually I tend to find Red Mage's melee, when properly geared, will outpace its nuking over time. But the truth is, that's because there's supposed to be no conflict between them. A Red Mage going full on damage, as opposed to support/damage, should be bursting as well as WSing. However, typically support damage winds up being faster due to how quickly TP is built up. Better geared RDMs than me have made me aware that Red Mage has the potential for continuous self skill-chain. Support/Damage is typically the approach I fall into.

It seems to me that you're unaware of a lot of what Red Mage has at its disposal. Red Mage can cap healing bonus without a weapon, as well as gain (and break, if my source is correct) Magic Burst Bonus cap. We sit on a large amount of Magical Accuracy bonuses even before gear thanks to gifts, which assists in a lot of what we do.

You made your affinity for melee RDM known and I assumed since you still talked about versatility that you were also nuking. If the boss can be enfeebled, and you have an RDM there, it's an RDM you want enfeebling.

Depending on the RDM, really. If a backline RDM isn't 550, then I end up overwriting their debuffs with my higher versions. If people are bleeding, I try to help heal, especially if healing isn't doing so well. My gear is finally getting to the point where I can attempt some MB too, even without a staff/club on hand. When I play frontline, I try to spot and fill the gaps in the party. Knowing how and when to react often makes the difference between dead party members, and a more quickly dead mob.

I am aware of RDM's hypothetical versatility as I said before when I said that if SE makes RDM too good at too many aspects, the dynamics of the class could make it so that an RDM/DRK is only a separate macro book away from being useful on the frontline or the backline. SCH is unlikely to be able to hop between roles mid fight effectively due to stratagems and BLU has a 1 minute cooldown and spell points on it. It also probably wants to change weapons when its role changes (though an RDM would too).

If RDM was offered better melee gear or better at healing, it could freely switch at no cost to its performance other than an inferior sub job.

I haven't re-explored RDM/DRK since returning, but much of what you're saying in theory is already proven true. Red Mage does not lack for gear, honestly. The difficulty is that Red Mage has to slice through the stat vomit more particularly than other classes and razor focus on what they do.

As I've said, that's the problem with RDM. Different RDMs want it to be great at different things and some RDMs want it to be great at everything simultaneously. When Scholar and Rune Fencer were announced, there were several RDMs saying "RDM should have these things" each time.

And I'm in a unique position to know why. Red Mages made continual suggestions on how to improve various aspects of the class over the years. In the course of the game, we watched our suggestions, verbatim, be taken and applied to new jobs rather than an update to Red mage itself. The Emphasis on adaptable Hybrid role, Light/Dark Caster Modes, Aura style buffs to cut down on the repeat cast time, and even a caster-style tank. All wound up in new jobs. That left the community rather bitter.

I don't know what kind of content you're clearing as a whole but you mention being able to hit all Escha T1s. Is that pretty much what you're clearing? No judgment either way but when talking about RDM accuracy issues, I'm thinking a bit higher where even focused melee have some problems hitting.

Yes. My standard is simple: Where Melee are welcome to hit, a Red Mage can stand on the front lines with them. (gear permitting) And this is true statistically. The accuracy issue isn't one that Red Mage suffers before Melee do. Right now I have enough for Apex Crabs (though I prefer to solo raptors than deal with 2 hr wait shout parties and argue for my place). Accuracy is not something Red Mage wants for more than other Melee jobs, they just need to know where they're gearing it, some of it is pretty hard to reach.

As for rdm tanking? You might give RDM/BLU a shot. I LOVE PLD/BLU and love RUN/BLU. You will probably (I don't know) need time to establish hate but between RDM's fast cast and always having Haste II, this shouldn't be that bad. Jettataura and Geist Wall are your bread and butter. Soporofic, Sheep Song, and Stinking Gas are also good. All but Jettataura are aoe but they do no damage (even if they do randomly land) so you run no risk of waking sleeping mobs.

I'd try to design sets that I was PDT capped even while casting. Unmoving Collar +1's 10 Enmity is a great piece.

I did recently hear discussions about /BLU for enmity generation as well as defense. It may be something to check out.

For a tanking set I'd probably start with this. If I'm remembering the stats on these items right, this is above 50% PDT (assuming 6% dark ring, allowing some flux) and capping MDT could be done with other slots. Have several sets though because sometimes MDT is not an important consideration.

Mafic Cudgel*3 / Genbu Shield*1
??? / Twilight Toruqe*2 / Genmei Earring / ???
??? / ??? / Dark Ring / Defending Ring
??? / Flume Belt / ??? / ??? (Medium's Sabots, maybe?)

Medium's don't provide PDT, but that slot is good for Battlecast Gaiters and other such.

1. If you can get a group for Escha Genbu, get that shield. Defense on shields matters more than other pieces of gear. It affects how much the shield blocks for. Granted, you're not going to block often, but, when you do, you want to block more. Otherwise old Genbu's shield is fine. Genmei earring also comes from new Genbu and is -2% PDT.

2. If you can get a +1 Loricate torque, more power to you.

Some of this will likely be merced for the sake of simplicity, my solo ventures typically are attempts to get pop items to lower that cost.

3. I know, you're probably thinking "RDM's club skill is terrible", but most of the time my PLD's accuracy is terrible. Survival above Accuracy.

Actually I was thinking that my Claidheamh Soluis is just sitting there in inventory where I could be augmenting it for Physical damage Reduction. There's more than 5% missing in the ??? sections of the set you have listed so I can have a Sword if I want to mix and match. Club is good though.

I also have no idea how well an RDM/RUN or RDM/PLD (inferior, but Sentinel) would hold hate.

Not well, I would think. What Red mage really lacks for is consistent hate tools and they have none natively. Lower level PLD and RUN will use hate tools from other jobs to facilitate their existing ones, but without them, hate becomes difficult. As it's applied as a subjob, I would have the hate effectiveness of a lower level PLD and RUN without an appropriate subjob.

Are you going to kill anything big with it? Probably not since damage mitigation (relevant dt capping/resisting) is core to tanking nowadays, while maximizing other stats like hp, enmty, etc.

No but you've given me a route to attempt. A lot of my problems of late has been the fact that I'm reaching the limit of what Trust Tanks can do for me.

You clearly play for different reasons than I do. Neither are necessary wrong but sometimes we can be oil and water.

And I have no problems bowing out of gameplay when it means my playstyle will hamper the enjoyment of others. Though, I'm finding out that it's not as common as I would think, which is reassuring.