HP Scaling, Please Remove It

[Railer]

Yea I'd rather have the time of the battle reduced rather than the monster health power increased.

[detlef]

No, I'm not. If a challenge has X difficulty and you're allowed to throw more bodies at it without the difficulty increasing, it becomes easier. That's obvious.

I actually don't think it's obvious. If it's a solo fight but you bring 2 people, yeah, it becomes a lot easier. But due to various mechanics including TP-feed, skillchains, and cumulative magic resists, you reach a point where each additional person is bringing less and less to the table. At some point, bringing more people doesn't help you anymore. And at some point, bringing more people hurts you. Especially if you consider that the people being added last are often the worst geared/skilled.

The point where you consider leaving people out is often dangerously close to a 6-man PT which means you're completely hosed if you have a larger group. Splitting up is an option but it's unrealistic to expect a group to be able to divide itself down the middle to make 2 winning groups.

[Ataraxia]

This mechanic is very detrimental to the community.

Firstly, it makes it very difficult for new players to make progress with their equipment, since any character that cannot 'pull their own weight' in parties makes it even more difficult to complete then it would without this mechanic. This discourages established groups from accepting new members, especially those who are already having some difficulty clearing content, thus meaning that new players cannot help other new players and are forced to rely on veterans who have already completed most of the content in the game (who have little incentive to do it over again just to help new/undergeared players).

Second, when combined with timed fights, this forces the community to use only the optimal job setups for each fight. This is a major contributor to our current state of having less then half the jobs available in the game to be actually used. If parties were able to bring more people to endgame content there would be more leeway available for people to fill with jobs that they actually enjoy playing, rather then being forced into cookie-cutter setups with only the absolute minimum number of people required. This is supposed to be a massively multiplayer game, and while I know the population is declining, it should still encourage people to play together, not exclude others because bringing them along hinders their chances of success.

Mechanics like HP scaling are quite obviously damaging to the longevity, and more importantly the enjoyment of the game. There is no reason that it should be included, anyone who clamors for more difficult content should find their own ways to make the game more difficult (such as bringing sub-optimal jobs to difficult content). Intentionally making it more difficult for people to play together in a multiplayer game is simply bad design. I understand that the current team of developers is not familiar with some of the older mechanics and may have difficulty alleviating them (such as the exp penalty for larger parties that was included in the original release), but this is a relatively recent mechanic and should be easily removed, please do so as soon as possible.

I completely agree with you. Akihiko Matsui need to pay close attention to this.

[OmnysValefor]

I actually don't think it's obvious. If it's a solo fight but you bring 2 people, yeah, it becomes a lot easier. But due to various mechanics including TP-feed, skillchains, and cumulative magic resists, you reach a point where each additional person is bringing less and less to the table.

Fair point, but I was replying to the idea that a group of people missing 70% of the time might just win if they just throw more bodies at it. It's not the case, people missing that much will miss a lot of Weaponskills, feed a lot of TP, cause curagas to cause a lot of hate. Over a longer duration, the WHM will run out of MP or enmity cap, or both. Hate cap still does exist after all.

You and I both know, of course, that if you have say two DD with 70% hit rate (hit capping isn't always easy or feasible)--or two SCH, but that's besides the point--then there's little reason to bring a third. The two will TP fast enough that the third has almost no opportunity to WS and is only feeding the monster more TP. If the the two are BLU, SAM, or DNC, they can use excess TP to make their own solo skillchains. In the event that one dies, there's always the tank to skillchain with. Further, if the two are BLU or DNC, they can provide utility as well (Tenebral Crush, Useful steps, Attack Speed, Emergency healing, Stuns)

Or, just bring two scholars and your SC people probably never die.

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One of the points posted earlier in this thread is that it's a sad state when a person relies on a trust more than a player but let's be honest, some of the trusts are better than players for specific purposes. Zeid will stun if it can be stunned. He doesn't have the recast that even a blm or stun-geared DRK does, but if stun is up, and he can, he will.

Selh'teus ("Seth" as I call him) is overpowered for small groups. He's the reason my paladin can grab a melee and a mage and go kill things, because he'll feed us TP/MP/Free HP. He screws up some skillchains, but only if you don't know how to work with him.

I went to a Delores once that you would have laughed so hard you cried if you saw it. Grabbed a whm, and he said his girlfriend was the better healer so we grabbed her and he switched to RDM/WHM. I explained the fight, the things to watch for, where to stand (near the boss, not behind the tank, etc). I got breathed and everything got para'd. I spammed remedies, wouldn't go off. Begging in party chat for para, just para, I'll med the rest. Nothing. BLMs got meleed to death and they're begging in party chat too. Since then, I prefer Apururu over some random whm. She might not para me first, but she'll get to me.

The point where you consider leaving people out is often dangerously close to a 6-man PT which means you're completely hosed if you have a larger group. Splitting up is an option but it's unrealistic to expect a group to be able to divide itself down the middle to make 2 winning groups.

Yep, this is definitely true, often times a few people have to be a member of both groups. LS's are lucky to have one good whm that loves the job, let alone two. A good GEO, especially an Idris. A tank that really dedicates themselves.

[Pixela]

Remove the ability to fight them in alliances, make it single party only. Problem solved.

Anything else makes all content completely face roll. If that's what you want them just ask them to lower the difficulty.

[Olor]

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I am truly sorry if I come off as mean or anything like it. I help people, and I do carry people. I've helped probably a dozen different people get Rawhide armor or various UNMs. I play PLD and GEO because I like to bridge the gap but just because I'm helping people through entry level content doesn't mean I'd want them at Hidhaegg (ilvl Nidhogg) or Sovereign Behemoth.

Take those two for example, they will wipe out an undergeared group, hp-scaling or not. And they should, that's how MMOs work. You don't ding cap and then go kill some of the hardest bosses.

For the record, I don't think you're mean, you're very respectful and thoughtful and I enjoy your contribution to the conversation.

I just think there are different views at play here - my view is the game is too old to exclude too many people - and right now too many people are too far behind to catch up - and the game does nothing to help people forward... even reading wikis etc doesn't always give enough info... Ambuscade is a good start right now but I worry even that will be ruined by punishing folks for soloing - we will see.

[OmnysValefor]

my view is the game is too old to exclude too many people - and right now too many people are too far behind to catch up - and the game does nothing to help people forward... even reading wikis etc doesn't always give enough info... Ambuscade is a good start right now but I worry even that will be ruined by punishing folks for soloing - we will see.

While you do need to do your missions, which SE has made much easier, catching up isn't so terribly hard.

* You can farm something for gil and buy ancient beastcoins to get your Loquacious and Brutal Earrings, so you don't even need to bother with Limbus. And honestly, you could probably get by without either of those and noone would notice.
* Related to the first point, many of the best accessories in the game are from previous expansions/add ons.
* Sparks/119 gear pretty much put you on part with a well atma'd 99, so farming needed things out of Abyssea, even if you can't get help, isn't that terrible.
* The JSE weapon augments very generous.
* There are entry-friendly jobs, like GEO but not just GEO.
* Wanted Dial / Abjuration dial is random but offers some benefit.
* Ambuscade. The armor from this looks really promising. I have a friend who just came back and because of Ambuscade, his PLD is able to -DT cap in relevant gear (meaning he has good amounts of defense, magic evasion, and base stats. His other job, DRK, is also loving the Ambuscade gear. Sulevia's is not tanking gear, but it's much better than trying to tank in abyssea area stuff. Anybody can do Ambuscade Dragon, even if they need to stick to E or VE at first.

SE has done quite a bit to make catching up easier. They could gone the alternate route and made this upgraded Salvage armor require doing Salvage. In a different era of the game, they probably would have.

[Olor]

I am looking forward to getting augments on my JSE weapons but I can't solo the last of ROV yet.

You're right there are some movements in the right direction, and Camate's latest post shows they aren't going totally wrong on ambuscade which I appreciate.

I just don't see how (say) removing HP boost for delve bosses at this point would hurt that direction - it would just make it easier for someone like me to put together an alliance of scrubs to get clears instead of feeling like my only option is paying for mercs, just as an example.

And no, those aren't the best stuff they are dropping but there are still some decent items there and it would help people get their base JSE weapon and maybe some half decent earrings etc.... help dual wielders get a second 119 weapon to start with, etc.

Right now the time limit and the boost in boss HP from more members makes it difficult for scrubs to put together groups to get these clears. The content is pretty outdated, pretty much no one does it anymore except to sell clears - so why not open it up a bit?

[Zekander]

Ok, here's the deal, all minutia aside for the moment.

Here is my personal experience with the HP scaling system. I am a member of an unusually large linkshell. The leader of which is incredibly kind and helpful. Many times in the past I have seen exactly this happen: LS leader announces they are trying start a group to fight 'X' HP scaled NM. Many members voice their interest in joining. Inevitably the leader says 'I really want to include all of you, but because the difficulty goes up with more people, and we are already struggling to win, I'm afraid I have to turn you away'. This has happened frequently enough that as of now, events are no longer announced, the leader simply sends a /tell to the members who can be included in whatever content they are attempting and the rest of the linkshell remains completely out of the loop.

I am certain I am not the only person to have experienced this.

This is my problem with the HP scaling system. Regardless of any other complaints, this is the end result: Small groups of people who are successful at clearing the content stay together and are actively discouraged from inviting anyone else into their group by this mechanic. This is very damaging to the community in the game. Yes, there are other ways of obtaining gear to bring your character to an acceptable level of strength. But, if there are no groups willing to take any new members then what is the point? This is a multiplayer game and it should have mechanics to encourage people to play together.

I'm not even saying it should be removed entirely, as I said, it would be fine if it were limited to only the toughest fights. But it is applied to everything.

I could probably come up with all sorts of counters to your specific points, but frankly, I don't care about all that. This is the point I am trying to make, if a multiplayer game actively discourages players from working together then that is very bad for the community, and it is very bad for the longevity of the game.

[OmnysValefor]

Ok, here's the deal, all minutia aside for the moment.

I love hand-waving.

The game doesn't discourage people from working together and playing together. It discourages people from jumping straight to tough content (if not necessarily the toughest content). It doesn't discourage your helpful LS leader from taking you to Zi'tah and Ru'aun T1s, it discourages him from taking you directly to harder content. You should do fine against 119 and 125 UNMs, but you simply don't belong at Sovereign Behemoth (135) yet.

Try giving Ambuscade some time. I whole-heartedly wish all sets had been released together, or each set had say foot-item released the first month and legs the next, etc. While Sulevia's being first happened to benefit myself (Paladin is severely lacking in accuracy options for certain slots, pre-Sulevia's) and a friend of mine, my light-armor melee friends are falling behind.

Great, I can take one to content that I can't take the others to, but I also don't want to bring any of them into the hardest content just yet.