Job balancing?

[Secondplanet]

if anyone wants a good laugh about how some view how balance works right now, I was helping some people in Escha-Zi'tah and they pulled a group of monsters which i apogee+thunderspark x2 to clear them all out and i did this while a BLU was running past me with their own train. He took the time to stop while being attacked by his own hoard to say that summoner is broken and needs a nerf and then one shots his whole group with his attack.

I don't think the issue of balance can be sorted out properly by players calls cause they will want their own jobs given more power or stay where they are while demanding that other jobs that come close to theirs be nerfed to keep them on top.

[OmnysValefor]

As for melee: The problem is not the design of the classes but the design of the combat.

There is hope though. We don't know the stats of future gear but lets look at the Ambuscade armor. While quite tanky, (lots of -dt%), Sulevia's is a hybrid melee set, not a tanking set. It gives great offensive stats, great -dt, all at the expense of Haste which can be overcome in other slots/with buffs.

I'm hoping, really hoping, that this gear has DT because SE has recognized part of the problem, and not just because Paladin can wear it. I hope the MNK/SAM/NIN/PUP (Usukane in Salvage) also has similar levels of DT and offensive stats, as well as Skadi etc. I honestly hope Morrigan's (BLM/SCH/GEO/etc) *does not* have -dt on it. BLM and SCH are already too safe most of the time. And yeah, what makes me a great GEO (even with my little Dunna) is that I stack -DT gear that I've farmed the hard way. I sacrifice some refresh for it, but I am usually the last mage to go down in the event of a wipe.

Melee need great hybrid options because they need to find the balance between offensive and defensive stats. BLM has no such concern. They should be idling in dt/refresh, swapping to fast cast to start the cast, and MAB/MACC to land the spell. Making Morrigan's some beautiful hybrid set would undo so much of the potential that hybrid melee sets might have.

They still need to factor in the fact that melee need soooo much babysitting. Amnesia is stuck for the duration, silence is not (though mutes are).

What frequently kills melee is:

* An AOE WS or Magic followed by an AOE WS or Magic.
* Some curse that diminishes HP or prevents healing or potent dots, coupled with with an AOE WS or magic.
* Can't ignore the incredible damage some monsters' spike spells do. A BLU or THF is a second too late to turn and they're dead.
* Melee can wear some DT gear but they want accuracy and offensive stats. Either they gimp their TP-rate to survive, or they die. Unfortunately a lot of players don't carry -DT gear because they're too much about offense. Mages, on the other hand, stand back at a safe distance and are safe from most damage. A BLM or SCH can relax in DT/PDT/MDT/Refresh/Regen gear and only switch while they're actually casting and lose *no throughput* because of this. If mages are in melee range, it's usually to be protected by vex/attune.
* The melee gets hate either because of a hate reset or because they pulled off the tank. Magic Bursting, though often higher numbers, produces less hate.

I've said it before but BLMs used to be dangerous glass-cannons. They'd hurt you, but they were easy to kill. Now they're rock-solid machine guns.

Melee are often shut down by so many enfeebles that require constant babysitting (some para's are so potent): Amnesia, Paralyze, Blind, Slow, Petrified, Stun, Doom. Stat-down.

...and even their melee buffs are behind a comparably-equipped GEO's, which is kind of disappointing.

No, the biggest problem is that an exceptional (REM) bard is behind a standard Dunna GEO in a lot of ways (and I am a Dunna GEO). Bard's few strengths are barely strengths: They can provide a wider variety of buffs, they're not mp-dependent, and they're highly mobile.

Variety of buffs:

* Carols and threnodies, GEO does better Vex/Attune and Focus/Languor respectively
* Useful songs like Minuet (attack+) have fixed values, GEO is percentage based, thus scaling and ultimately far more potent.
* Melee are generally expected to have as much accuracy as they themselves can provide. Sometimes they still need acc support, but not on most contest.
* Bard buffs can't be "killed" at an inopportune time, but they can be dispelled if the boss dispels, but every boss does kill bubbles with enough time.

Mobility

* It is nice they don't have to stay in melee range to be full support to the melee.
* Most battle fields are small.
* Lack of MP-Dependency to do their primary job IS an asset, but with less-than-stellar buffs, this is not a big deal.

I don't know if they can even fix BRD anymore. The job is clunkier to play than GEO and weaker to boot.

^ This guy's an R/E/M Bard (and a few Idrises), he knows what he's talking about.

I think the only way of balance the jobs.

Example

Red Mage, Corsair and BRD.

Red Mage is not really a "buffer", aside from Haste II/Refresh 3. I don't play RDM and would feel uncomfortable seeing RDM pushed *more* into the supportive role.

[Olor]

Thanks for the thoughtful post Omnys. I know I should just suck it up and level GEO if I want to play support again (and therefore get in parties again) but it's a bummer. It doesn't seem like a lot to ask that they could make bard at least 2/3 as good as GEO...

[OmnysValefor]

I agree completely.

It's an insult to the bards like detlef that invested so much effort and the job is now lackluster.

I mean, make no mistake, if GEO did not exist, Bard would still be princess. People would love it for madrigals and even minuets. The problem is the gap between the two is a canyon wide.

[detlef]

The buffs are weaker, the buffs can be dispelled, applying/maintaining 4 full-strength songs is not fun, and the job is too dependent on it's legendary instruments/weapons. The solution is not allowing more songs. Maybe double buff potency while limiting us to only one song of each type per person. This would have the added benefit of letting us know exactly which song needs to be reapplied. Also, instead of Troubadour doubling buff duration, increase base duration and nerf Troubadour by a corresponding amount. And another debuff would be nice but really the job mainly needs stronger buffing capabilities.

COR needs a boost too.

[VoiceMemo]

Bard. 3 Songs Default Instead of 2 and Song duration 90 Seconds More. Unlocking any R/M/E/A lv75 unlocks 4 Songs and duration + 90 Seconds + Potency of All Buffs +10%.

To avoid People Exploit the System. Max Amount of Dices per party 4, Max Amount of Songs per party 4, Max Amount of RDM Buff/Debuff 1/1, Max amount Geo buff/debuff 1/1.

Put Something like this in the Test server 1 Month. Then ask for Feedback to the Playerbase, after all the Feedback received here add the Buff and Keep testing to see if the situation changed. If this work Nexth patch Two-Handers, etc.

How would this be fair to those of us that are already 4 song brds? If all brds got 3 songs native and limited to 4 max. Also BRD burn parties were fun back in the day, I'd love to get together with 5 other brds, 2 brd /war, 2 /whm, 2 /nin and have up to 24 songs active(if all are 4 song brds).

Also the test server is no longer available. Yes its still an option to click in the menu but the server is gone, so testing is not an option.

My solution to how to fix brd(i've been a brd for 12 years now) is to uncap our songs hard cap and redo how the calculation of the potency of each songs power is determined. The easiest solution is to change our singing, wind, and string skill from C to A+. We are the only job to have instrument skill. Yes geomancer have C skill for handbell and geomancy but the nature of how their spells are calculated is by percent, versus the static values of brd.

If rather not change the base skill, the formula for the songs needs to be recalculated to help lessen the gap between brds buff power and geomancer.

[OmnysValefor]

That sounds good.

A 4 song bard, not being able to give the same person more than one song of a type would be able to give the melee 1 March, Madrigal, Minuet and maybe something defensive like Scherzo or a Carol so while GEO might give a stronger buff, GEO can't provide as many buffs and entrusted spells are suitably weak.

So roll all tiers of Valor Minuet into a single spell, same with Madrigals and March and Ballad. If they did this, it might not be necessary for all carols to be rolled into one, or all threnodies. GEO would be preferable for a mage setup, Bard for melee, and they could work well together in a mixed comp...

If melee ever come back into style.

[Secondplanet]

My solution to how to fix brd(i've been a brd for 12 years now) is to uncap our songs hard cap and redo how the calculation of the potency of each songs power is determined. The easiest solution is to change our singing, wind, and string skill from C to A+. We are the only job to have instrument skill. Yes geomancer have C skill for handbell and geomancy but the nature of how their spells are calculated is by percent, versus the static values of brd.

Summoner has the same issues with old hard caps on our bloodpact wards. Most are stuck at lvl 75 stats which today are not even worth the mp needed to cast. As for raising the skill stat from C to A+ would break abit of balance as you would be having 2 A+ stats as the base for every song cast. While smn only has a A- ranking for summoning magic which is summoners one and only magic skill so never understood that. I could see bard going from C to maybe B+ or A- and Geo going to A at most.

[VoiceMemo]

Summoner has the same issues with old hard caps on our bloodpact wards. Most are stuck at lvl 75 stats which today are not even worth the mp needed to cast. As for raising the skill stat from C to A+ would break abit of balance as you would be having 2 A+ stats as the base for every song cast. While smn only has a A- ranking for summoning magic which is summoners one and only magic skill so never understood that. I could see bard going from C to maybe B+ or A- and Geo going to A at most.

Well perhaps gear then that would raise our stat level more than the individual wind skill, string skill, singing skill, along the lines of the Incanter's Torque, but for say All song skills +X amount and removal of the hard caps. In this way base brd would not be OP but a well geared brd could be.

[VoiceMemo]

That sounds good.

A 4 song bard, not being able to give the same person more than one song of a type would be able to give the melee 1 March, Madrigal, Minuet and maybe something defensive like Scherzo or a Carol so while GEO might give a stronger buff, GEO can't provide as many buffs and entrusted spells are suitably weak.

So roll all tiers of Valor Minuet into a single spell, same with Madrigals and March and Ballad. If they did this, it might not be necessary for all carols to be rolled into one, or all threnodies. GEO would be preferable for a mage setup, Bard for melee, and they could work well together in a mixed comp...

If melee ever come back into style.

That is a HORRIBLE idea to limit to 1 type of each song per person. The whole point of brd is combining quality and quantity of songs for power. Look at how the REM are setup. Relic=Gjallarhron = Quality of songs, Emp= Daurdabla = Quantity and Mythic=Carnwenhan = Duration. If it was only 1 type of song per person max ballad we could give is only 8mp/tic for ballad 3(Gjallarhorn +4, base 3, Emp legs +1). At the moment this is the ONLY spell that can exceed geo's buff ability, Ballad 1, 2, 3 with Gjallarhorn +4 and Emp legs +1, totals 21mp/tic, idris geo maxes out at I believe 16mp/tic. With bolster(1hr) goes to 32mp/tic, but brd can SV and go to 42mp/tic.