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  1. #1
    Player cengeal's Avatar
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    Jul 2011
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    Character
    Prometus
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99

    Why are grips so bad?

    The current weakness of a 2H DD compared to a dual wielder is simple: The DWers get to have 2 weapons, some of which have amazing stats (using taming sari's as examples), whereas 2H get to use a 2H weapon and a pathetic grip. Recently, JSE weapons have been able to be augmented, and the 2H weapons have been endowed with impressive amounts of accuracy. Relics also have a lot of accuracy on them, but their obtainability is anything but practical, so let's exclude these from the conversation for the time being.

    So before the most recent update, the most accuracy you could probably expect on any 2H weapon was around 30, combined from any DEX boosts and accuracy boosts. This was about the same for Dual Wielders. The difference is, they get to use another weapon that has similar (maybe even more) accuracy from their offhand. Comparatively, 2H's best grip in terms of accuracy is +10 to my knowledge, with Tzacab grip as my example. Now, let's assume I'm wrong and assume there's maybe one with +15. Is that a game changer? Absolutely not.

    If you combined Duplus Grip, Bloodrain strap, and Tzacab grip, you'd have ACC+16, ATK+10, DA+3, STP+6, and HP+50. The combined stats from three of the better melee grips still do not match a taming sari with poor augments in any department except Store TP and HP (which is not as important to begin with).

    The bad stats on grips was explanatory enough back when weapons didn't have extraordinary stats on them. But now they do, and the stats on the grips have not been brought up to par. Introducing a few "legendary" grips could help bridge that gap between 2H and dual wielders. Example: ACC/ATK+15, STR/DEX+10, STP+4 or DA+4 or even TA+2). The most logical solution for this would be to introduce one in Sinister Reign, or add a drop to one of the T2's in Ru'Aun that can be augmented like the weapons. Will it fix all the problems? No. But it is a step in the right direction.
    (6)
    Last edited by cengeal; 02-28-2016 at 07:05 AM.

  2. #2
    Player Karbuncle's Avatar
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    Mmmm, they were never meant to be added as a huge boost, just a small boost... But, now adays, the powerful additional benefits of an off hand weapon are... high.

    so I would be okay with them adding more powerful grips, maybe an Augmentable one in Reisinjima too.
    (0)

  3. #3
    Player Ulth's Avatar
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    Dec 2013
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    Character
    Andrewviii
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    Valefor
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    THF Lv 99
    Basically your big gripe is that light armor melees tend to have more accuracy and Dex than heavy armor melees. You know that thing that is the way it should be since heavy armor melees tend to have more Str and attack. Your reasoning for this is flawed. The 26 accuracy difference between two perfect augment taming sari and a Humility Flanged Grip combo is not going to make or break you. It's even less of a problem after the recent update where low end 2 hand weapons got huge accuracy buffs as well as the way high end weapons, (R/M/E), were dealt with giving them more combat skill instead of attack and accuracy so it only applies to the one hand. Your solution to the the problem is short sighted. Add better grips to use with the non JSE or RME weapons. Only they will still be able to be used with the JSE and RME weapons.

    The real problem is just accuracy in general. In the most recent freshly picked they acknowledge it is a problem and are working on solutions. What they will do about it, who knows. Hopefully something good, but they don't need bad misleading suggestions like this.
    (0)

  4. #4
    Player cengeal's Avatar
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    Jul 2011
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    Prometus
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    Valefor
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    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulth View Post
    Basically your big gripe is that light armor melees tend to have more accuracy and Dex than heavy armor melees. You know that thing that is the way it should be since heavy armor melees tend to have more Str and attack. Your reasoning for this is flawed. The 26 accuracy difference between two perfect augment taming sari and a Humility Flanged Grip combo is not going to make or break you. It's even less of a problem after the recent update where low end 2 hand weapons got huge accuracy buffs as well as the way high end weapons, (R/M/E), were dealt with giving them more combat skill instead of attack and accuracy so it only applies to the one hand. Your solution to the the problem is short sighted. Add better grips to use with the non JSE or RME weapons. Only they will still be able to be used with the JSE and RME weapons.

    The real problem is just accuracy in general. In the most recent freshly picked they acknowledge it is a problem and are working on solutions. What they will do about it, who knows. Hopefully something good, but they don't need bad misleading suggestions like this.
    Okay, I never said it was a complete solution, merely a step in the right direction. Grips were never given any real attention ever since they started introducing weapons that have so many stat and attribute bonuses. The reasoning is not flawed. 26 accuracy can make or break you, it's just not as likely as 50 accuracy making or breaking you. It could easily be the difference between having a capped hit rate and a non-capped hit rate. The real problem is 2Her's need to give up more to meet the accuracy requirements than dual wielders do. 4/5 2H weapon classes for DD's have acc+50 or more options for their weapons after excluding RME's. RME's are being excluded because their obtainability is not practical, as I previously stated.

    Looking at numbers gives you a very objective, black and white overview of a situation. However, numbers can also be misleading. What's ideal is not always practical. What's practical is not always ideal. The JSE weapons from Oboro are very practical. RME's are ideal but not practical. It is correct that accuracy in general is the problem. Personally, I think the entire accuracy/hit rate system could use a rehaul, but that's just my opinion, just like this thread being "bad and misleading" is your opinion. In fact, I would say your opinion is also bad and misleading, because based on your comments you didn't appear to read the entire thread. Or maybe you just picked and chose what to reply to, then ignored the rest.
    (0)

  5. #5
    Player cengeal's Avatar
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    Prometus
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    Valefor
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    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Karbuncle View Post
    Mmmm, they were never meant to be added as a huge boost, just a small boost... But, now adays, the powerful additional benefits of an off hand weapon are... high.

    so I would be okay with them adding more powerful grips, maybe an Augmentable one in Reisinjima too.
    When grips were first added the low stat bonuses were sensible, because 2H weapons at the time were more powerful than dual wielding, unless you were one of the few who had a Ridill. They also had a better accuracy:dexterity ratio. However, that's no longer the case. If 2H jobs were significantly more powerful than dual wield jobs, the accuracy difference would actually be justified. But the thing is, they're not. Like I said, this is by no means an end-all solution, it's only a step in the right direction.
    (0)

  6. #6
    Player Karbuncle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cengeal View Post
    When grips were first added the low stat bonuses were sensible, because 2H weapons at the time were more powerful than dual wielding, unless you were one of the few who had a Ridill. They also had a better accuracy:dexterity ratio. However, that's no longer the case. If 2H jobs were significantly more powerful than dual wield jobs, the accuracy difference would actually be justified. But the thing is, they're not. Like I said, this is by no means an end-all solution, it's only a step in the right direction.
    Thats what I said.

    When they were first added, they were never meant to be too powerful, but nowadays an offhand is much stronger than it used to be so it would make sense grips get stronger too.

    The 26 accuracy difference between two perfect augment taming sari
    I know you're addressing the accuracy component which of this, which is fine, but the change is the whole, The 22STR, 22DEX, 20 Attack, and 3% Triple Attack are considerable benefits. I mean, not to mention offhanding something like an Empyrean giving you +50DEX, dDEX woo, you're not getting that as a 2hander.

    Lets be real, the strength of offhand weapons has skyrocketed and Grips have remained relatively the same and 2-handed weapons don't have higher enough stat values over 1handed weapons to compensate for these changes. More powerful or at least Nolan/Etc Augmentable grips should be implemented to help facilitate this. Same could go for Mage grips but I don't think they suffer quite so much... though Dual Wielding certain swords or daggers on RDM is better than a staff...

    It won't solve 2handers weakened state right now, but It could help? Truth be told 2handers (and everyone else) are pretty screwed unless BLU somehow stops being a job.
    (0)

  7. #7
    Player Ulth's Avatar
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    Dec 2013
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    Andrewviii
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    Valefor
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    THF Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by cengeal View Post
    Okay, I never said it was a complete solution, merely a step in the right direction. Grips were never given any real attention ever since they started introducing weapons that have so many stat and attribute bonuses. The reasoning is not flawed. 26 accuracy can make or break you, it's just not as likely as 50 accuracy making or breaking you. It could easily be the difference between having a capped hit rate and a non-capped hit rate. The real problem is 2Her's need to give up more to meet the accuracy requirements than dual wielders do. 4/5 2H weapon classes for DD's have acc+50 or more options for their weapons after excluding RME's. RME's are being excluded because their obtainability is not practical, as I previously stated.

    Looking at numbers gives you a very objective, black and white overview of a situation. However, numbers can also be misleading. What's ideal is not always practical. What's practical is not always ideal. The JSE weapons from Oboro are very practical. RME's are ideal but not practical. It is correct that accuracy in general is the problem. Personally, I think the entire accuracy/hit rate system could use a rehaul, but that's just my opinion, just like this thread being "bad and misleading" is your opinion. In fact, I would say your opinion is also bad and misleading, because based on your comments you didn't appear to read the entire thread. Or maybe you just picked and chose what to reply to, then ignored the rest.
    They probably will rehaul the accuracy/hit system. And you are right there was a lot of garbage in your post that I did my very best to gloss over. You act like RME are impossible to make. At least 2 hand jobs have decent options for relic. Mandau 119 III has less damage than a augmented taming sari and Mercy Stroke is awful. The Alexandrite for my mythic alone costs more than an entire 119 III relic weapon. Yet for some reason hundreds of people have mythic weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karbuncle View Post
    I know you're addressing the accuracy component which of this, which is fine, but the change is the whole, The 22STR, 22DEX, 20 Attack, and 3% Triple Attack are considerable benefits. I mean, not to mention offhanding something like an Empyrean giving you +50DEX, dDEX woo, you're not getting that as a 2hander.

    Lets be real, the strength of offhand weapons has skyrocketed and Grips have remained relatively the same and 2-handed weapons don't have higher enough stat values over 1handed weapons to compensate for these changes. More powerful or at least Nolan/Etc Augmentable grips should be implemented to help facilitate this. Same could go for Mage grips but I don't think they suffer quite so much... though Dual Wielding certain swords or daggers on RDM is better than a staff...

    It won't solve 2handers weakened state right now, but It could help? Truth be told 2handers (and everyone else) are pretty screwed unless BLU somehow stops being a job.
    The problem of relative strength of stats of 2 hand weapons to one hand weapons was already being addressed in the previous update. The augments of the JSE 2 hand weapons were significantly higher than the ones for one hand. I imagine this will be the continued trend for any new weapons that are added afterwards. I'm sure there will be grips added in the future as well and they will be improved some, but it won't be the stat vomit that he is hoping for.

    As for offhanding RMEA, of the 6 legendary daggers there is a whopping 1 that does anything from the offhand. Meanwhile what ever aftermath a two hand job puts up they can rest assured knowing that it will apply to all their hits and not just half of them. If SE wants to change things and actually make RMEA weapons as potent in the offhand as in the main and have aftermaths apply to both weapons then by all means there should be better grips even legendary grips which takes x amount of mcguffins to make.

    Also once the accuracy fixes come through and accuracy is no longer an issue the next big hurdle will be staying alive, and for that I think drk will be the next bandwagon with their 9,999 max hp from drain III.
    (0)
    Last edited by Ulth; 02-29-2016 at 04:47 AM.

  8. #8
    Player cengeal's Avatar
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    Jul 2011
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    Prometus
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulth View Post
    They probably will rehaul the accuracy/hit system. And you are right there was a lot of garbage in your post that I did my very best to gloss over. You act like RME are impossible to make. At least 2 hand jobs have decent options for relic. Mandau 119 III has less damage than a augmented taming sari and Mercy Stroke is awful. The Alexandrite for my mythic alone costs more than an entire 119 III relic weapon. Yet for some reason hundreds of people have mythic weapons.
    As usual, it was a pleasure talking to you. I said they were not practical, not impossible, as they take months to make, unless you have millions upon millions of gil lying around, which most don't. Most RME owners do a combination of farming/buying, which can still be a lengthy process. Hundreds out of thousands of people have mythics, which makes them a small minority. Okay, maybe not thousands, but they're still a minority.

    I'm not really quite sure what to do with you anymore. You don't stay completely informed, yet you insist that your opinion is more valuable. You don't successfully discredit someone by saying "that's garbage, so I didn't read the whole thing". I guess my real question is: what do you hope to accomplish by being so abrasive and hostile?
    (0)

  9. #9
    Player Ulth's Avatar
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    Andrewviii
    World
    Valefor
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    THF Lv 99
    I think you misunderstood. I read it all. I just didn't address it all because most of it was incorrect, pointless, or already addressed in a previous discussion. Why am I so abrasive? Probably because of all the self censoring I have to do while responding to certain people on the official forums, on a account of the, word that rhymes with smascist, moderation rules. Or it could do with how I hate having to repeat myself, and after I pointed out how wrong this is in a separate thread, you had to go and make a new topic in which it is still wrong, but you try and qualify it as right by saying the most recent weapons don't count for some unknown reason. What do I hope to accomplish? For you to stop.
    (0)

  10. #10
    Player Jile's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Character
    Jile
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    SE: Can we get new crafted grips from Escha/Reisinjima drops?
    (1)

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