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  1. #1
    Player OmnysValefor's Avatar
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    Oct 2012
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    1,186

    Apex Colibri {Can I have it?}

    As we all know, the optimum setup for an apex party is 1-2 tank/melee 2-4 BLM/SCH and a GEO. It's disgusting, but it's the winning solution.

    Two handers are left in the cold, bards are left in the cold. Healing WHM, SCH, RDM generally are left in the cold. A GEO can keep everyone alive as well as any healer if the tank is worth anything.

    Edit: Two handers currently gearing up are left in the cold because they're shorted the accuracy bonus that can be aquired from an offhand weapon/augments to said weapon. Grips, even accuracy grips, do not compare.

    I hate turning people away when I don't think their acc is sufficient but as the party leader, the success of the group is on my name. If I put together terrible groups, neither the low-acc melee or I will be getting any more parties.

    At 75, the situation was reverse. Noone wanted BLM because the target of choice, Greater Colibri, reflected magic damage, but BLM had alternatives and because merit points could be earned on any job, for any job, you didn't have to worry. Also back then, /37 wasn't high enough to let subjobs cast haste.

    Suggestion: Apex Colibri. Give them the full skillset they had, and lower their evasion because melee cant eat food. Give them low enough hp that a a three step skillchain from fairly geared melee will kill them, or make them reward more CP.

    The ideal setup for this party would be Healer, Bard/Cor/GEO *, Tank/Melee, Melee, Melee/COR

    Ranger is included as melee for simplicity's sake.

    I haven't once had a high-performing CP party with more than one two melee including the tank. Part of the reason for this is that most players TP so fast, there isn't much room for a third melee.

    Suggestion 2: Make a mob that is especially vulnerable to skillchains but absorbs magic damage/magic bursting.

    * I think if you design mobs that malaise/languor/acumen/focus (I know people like haste/regain, but all three buffers can help) isn't the best option against, people will start using the other buffers again. If you design mobs that magic bursting isn't far and away the best option, people will start inviting melee.

    I've had slow days where I couldn't get a party going and people start laying out a four or 5 step skillchain and my immediate thought is: I'm not working significantly harder for significantly less experience points. One person misses an SC or mistimes, and it's just a mess.

    There may be people that read this thread and consider me to be too elitist, but that's really not the case. I'm tired of watching people struggle for enough accuracy only to compete for 1-2 spots in a party.

    Edit: Oh and, please make more than one good camp. That's the bottle-neck with crabs. There's one good camp.

    On the other hand, if you make them non-aggressive, a bard-party can move around. If there's one weakness geo has, and I'm not complaining, it's a lack of mobility.
    (6)
    Last edited by OmnysValefor; 02-17-2016 at 11:48 PM.

  2. #2
    Player cengeal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    90
    Character
    Prometus
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    This is anything but elitist. Recently I tried to do an apex party on DRK (which is decently geared, but by no means godly). It went terrible. Even with sublime sushi on, was still struggling to hit. Doesn't help that I was a total MP sponge. Apex Colibri could at least see the return of old-school merit party setups. Most importantly, it would make getting JPs for WAR, DRK, and DRG more enjoyable, and easier as well. There's a lot to work with here, and I hope the dev team responds to it.
    (0)

  3. #3
    Player Vae's Avatar
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    Jan 2016
    Posts
    244
    Character
    Vaelira
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    So, while I think its a good idea, that will go completely ignored... I would rather, given there was actually some kind of option that allowed players some actual input instead of talking to people that couldn't care less..

    That CP was just completely abolished and we had legit levels again.

    Aside from completely hating ilvl, I don't particularly enjoy playing this game the same way I used to in 2004. The only difference being higher level magic.

    Because yes, Sorrowval parties with blm bursting flood was very entertaining....

    Falling upon deaf ears.
    (0)

  4. #4
    Player Genz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    14
    Character
    Genzz
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    It's not a bad idea, but it's only a band-aid.

    I'm wondering if the devs are planning any radical change to salvage the game balance, like they did when they chose to nerf Perfect Defense.
    (1)

  5. #5
    Player Ulth's Avatar
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    Dec 2013
    Posts
    578
    Character
    Andrewviii
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by OmnysValefor View Post
    Edit: Two handers currently gearing up are left in the cold because they're shorted the accuracy bonus that can be aquired from an offhand weapon/augments to said weapon. Grips, even accuracy grips, do not compare.
    Lets compare a thf using a max augment Taming Sari with a Sandung offhand, (probably the best two daggers for accuracy) to a drk using Cronus with a Flanged Grip. 20 accuracy and 22 dex on the taming sari gives it an accuracy bonus of 37 plus the 50 from the augments on Sandung gives the thf 87 accuracy from their main and sub slot. Cronus has an accuracy of 15 with augmented accuracy of 70 add in the 10 accuracy from the grip and that's a total of 95. 95 is greater than 87.
    (0)

  6. #6
    Player OmnysValefor's Avatar
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    Oct 2012
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    1,186
    In regards to buffers, I think that corsair is in any okay spot, it provides some unique buffs (regain) or buffs that stack with other buffs. (I do not play corsair, worth noting.)

    Bard has Scherzo but other than that, GEO's buffs are better. Bard, theoretically, stacks well with geo (can carol + bar + vex/attune + weather or threnody + weather + focus/malaise), but if you have to choose either, geo is almost always the better choice.

    I think the thing they must do is roll all the Threnodies into Threnody and all the Carols into one Carol. It's easy to do, give a quest where you have to go cast all the carols/threnodies on an NPC and the reward is the final spell (and removing the other spells). That still leaves bard without an MAB/-MDEF buff, but it has Scherzo. That might do something to reignite favor towards the job.

    In regards to CP, I fully (or foolly) believe this could do a lot for CP imbalance. The only problem now is that so many players have capped the jobs they care about, but short of letting us earn cp on one job, for another (which I guess they've said isn't happening), I can't imagine a better solution.

    Here's the thing, a lot of melee don't carry much dt gear, and they die but a lot of mages don't either, but they're unaffected by most aoes, most TP moves and especially the double whammy that is frequently what kills the melee. You see blms going down just as quick as thfs when the mages have to stand on the boss (like Delores).

    Additionally, a melee in dt gear, swapping for ws/abils/spells, loses Accuracy, Double Attack, Triple Attack, Haste, Store TP, Refresh (blu mostly). To survive the boss, melee darn near have to gear like a pld and hit about as often as a pld (not quite, I know). Melee also eat status effects that hurt them (paralyze and blind) which require babysitting/remedies. Melee get amnesia which cannot be removed if it lands. Also not forgetting attack down, acc down defense down, magic defense down.

    A mage in dt gear, swapping for nukes, refresh gear which is a non issue for blm/sch/whm and not much of an issue for the other casters. Mages get silenced, pop an echo and move on. How many bosses use mab/macc down or meva/mdef up? SMN would suffer some if required to wear dt gear (swapping for pet commands).
    (0)

  7. #7
    Player
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
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    1,542
    Or apex skeletons/pots. mnk burn 2016 yes please
    (4)

  8. #8
    Player OmnysValefor's Avatar
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    Oct 2012
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    I'll leave it intact, I said it. I didn't realize acc buffs were that high on the augments for JSE weapons but still, doesn't change the general idea of the apex-bird party.

    (Last time I looked at jse page, augment info wasn't yet posted).

    It also doesn't change that augments on other 2h weapons/h2h need to be addressed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ulth View Post
    Lets compare a thf using a max augment Taming Sari with a Sandung offhand, (probably the best two daggers for accuracy) to a drk using Cronus with a Flanged Grip. 20 accuracy and 22 dex on the taming sari gives it an accuracy bonus of 37 plus the 50 from the augments on Sandung gives the thf 87 accuracy from their main and sub slot. Cronus has an accuracy of 15 with augmented accuracy of 70 add in the 10 accuracy from the grip and that's a total of 95. 95 is greater than 87.
    Let's not do that, because we're not talking about high end geared players, we're talking about players gearing up. I have no doubt that people killing Ru'Aun and Rei tier 2s and tier 3s can compete in an apex party.

    So let's go Taming Sari (22 DEX + 20 ACC) + Nibiru Knife (5 DEX + 20 ACC) -- 40 Acc, 27 DEX making 60 acc total,
    vs Nibiru Sickle (20 Acc) + say a 10 or 15 Acc Grip -- 35 Acc total.
    vs Nibiru Santi (25 Acc) -- 25 Acc total.

    Edit: You know what? I have no interest in playing 2h'ers (besides RUN as a tank, next job) and buffs to these won't change that, but I can see past my own jobs

    Edit #2: I also don't have accuracy problems on my melee. I have such a variety of gear, but I've helped people gear up, and as I recently came back, I had to go through gearing up and I can see the problem.

    Make melee friendly mobs and you'll have bards willing to sing an acc song. However, on mb mobs, I'm hurting the party by casting geo-precision (or eva-down, can't recall name) because someone doesn't have the acc.
    (0)
    Last edited by OmnysValefor; 02-18-2016 at 01:47 AM.

  9. #9
    Player Ulth's Avatar
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    Dec 2013
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    578
    Character
    Andrewviii
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    I've done melee set ups on the apex crawlers plenty of times and it works just fine. Also I know a bard who got her stars by meleeing with trusts as a bard in escha zi'tah. The amount of roads to get JP is staggering. SE doesn't need to waste time making something that is incredibly easy even easier because it's not quite as easy as it is for magic burst jobs.
    (0)

  10. #10
    Player OmnysValefor's Avatar
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    Oct 2012
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    I didn't say they don't work. I said they don't work nearly as well. The difference is staggering.

    And yes, they need to consider where melee stand in all content of the game right now, because it's not a good spot.
    (2)

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