Can we talk about PLD's JP Options and Gifts?

[OmnysValefor]

I'm posting this here because the job forums, at least PLD's, are pretty dead.

A lot of jobs have a few categories that are pretty lackluster, and a few gifts too. I've read that you've said you didn't want categories/gifts to be too potent, but some are very potent. SCH's Helix II, BLM's Death, BLU's 100/1200, as well 20 more blue magic points as a jp category.

To begin with, PLD's JP categories are lackluster or awful.

Invincible Effect - Increases enmity during invincible.
* This isn't great, but this is alright.

Intervene Effect - Increases damage of Intervene.
* This usually does less/much-less than a nuke or weapon skill.
* I'd rather see this increase intervene's duration, or increase the potency of the effect (decreases acc/defense/m.acc/m.defense).

Holy Circle Effect - Reduces damage from undead for those affected by Holy Circle.
* This is neat, but there aren't a lot of undead mobs. I'd rather see this reduce damage from any source while under the affects of Holy Circle.

Sentinel Effect - Increases Enmity
* This one is fine.

Shield Bash Effect - Increases damage of shield bash.

Cover Duration
* On most bosses the only one behind a pld ever is the thief. It's way too dangerous to be behind a pld. If someone gets hate after a hate reset and I try to Cover them, they usually run away.

Divine Emblem Effect - Increases divine magic damage while under the effect of Divine Emblem

Sepulcher Duration
* This one isn't bad. Again, not many undead bosses, but this one isn't bad. They can't all be home runs.

Palisade Effect - Increases blockrate while under the effects of Palisade.
* I'd change this to be full time blockrate increase.

Enlight effect - Increases damage/accuracy of Enlight by 1.
* This could be good.

Here's what I'd do for PLD gifts instead. These are just ideas.

Invincible Effect - Same.
Intervene Effect - Duration increased by 20/20 seconds.
Holy Circle Effect - Decreases Damage from all sources for those affected by Holy Circle.
Sentinel Effect - Same.
Shield Bash Effect - Grants 25 TP per level for a total of 500 TP at 20/20.
Cover Duration becomes Rampart Effect - Increases potency of Rampart by 10 per level.
Divine Emblem Effect - Increases magic accuracy of next divine spell.
Sepulcher Duration - Same.
Palisade Effect becomes Block Rate - This would alleviate some of the problem with the fact that Aegis blocks like an offhand dagger.
Enlight Effect - Same.

On to JP Gifts.

Nowhere in any of PLDs gifts are there a single thing to do with Block Rate, Shield Skill, Enmity Gain, or Enmity Loss. The closest to any of this is Shield Mastery Effect which increases the TP gained from a successful block.

Enlight II (100 JP) is presently exactly the same as Enlight 1 but more potent. I would change it so that, unlike Enlight 1, it did not decay and always lasted the full 3 minutes unless dispelled. The decay is pretty annoying. Nerf the Accuracy Bonus if you like to Enlight 1 levels, just so long as it no longer degrades with each hit.

A 2100 JP PLD gets 87 accuracy from Enlight 1, and 122 from Enlight II, not accounting for divine magic skill+ gear.

Protect Effect (550 JP) - Increases potency of protect effect by 10%. No comment about this, just listing it here. Actually, yes comment. 17-18 defense as a 550 is pretty awful.

Reprisal Effect (1200 JP) - Increases damage of Reprisal Spikes by 20%. Not only is this lackluster. It might actually be bad for the job. Boss/boss content will resist the damage anyway. Reprisal has never ever been a meaningful contribution to damage. So while never being a benefit, in cases where you have enough stuff on you that the reflected damage surpasses reprisal's damage cap, it wears off. This may well cause it to wear off earlier. I am not certain. Effectively, all this means to PLDs is "Reprisal might not last as long". Anything high enough level to hit you has enough HP that the damage Reprisal reflects means nothing.

Somewhere in PLD's gifts, I would add something that made Cover no longer positional (reverse of trick attack), or I would make Cover behave like Accomplice and steal a portion of the target's enmity. This could be implemented via a category or gifts.

- - -

I love PLD for what it is, but there's no flavor to a lot of the JP categories/gifts. They don't really address the strengths or weaknesses of the job, other than bland bonuses to defense (I love defense) and -damage from critical attacks.

Sorry, I get on my growing Geomancer and my baby blue mage (blu especially) and there's flavor, style, and sense to the jp categories and jp gifts.

[Aeron]

I like a lot of the suggestions that you have made. In my opinion the job points/gift system wasn't original intended to be super helpful or fix the broken parts of the jobs which I feel was a mistake. The fact that some jobs lucked out and got some really awesome job point cats./gifts were the ones that fell through the cracks. As much as I agree with your suggestions, they would be requirements by the player community and that is something that they wanted to avoid as much as possible. I came back to the game after playing 14 for about a year and focused solely on gearing rather then grind out job points because I understood that the power of pld comes from the gear you have. I mean lets be real you have ppl that don't want to make an REM do you think they would really want to grind out jps if they knew it was a requirement.

[dasva]

Wait plds get jps? They were so ridiculously lack luster I kind of forgot. Like seriously performance wise there is little difference to a 0 and a 2100 pld tank

[Kincard]

Sorry if this feels like I'm hijacking the thread, but I think it would be a better idea to just make a thread about JPs and Gifts of every job honestly, because that way if SE ever reads the thread they will have a better understanding of why certain things are over or underpowered when viewed in the game as whole, and that would give a better incentive to adjust them.

To put it more bluntly, how about we talk about the JPs and gifts of every job other than BLU. I love playing BLU and all, but I really would like to think even the most hardcore BLU around here can admit their JPs, but especially their gifts, are absurdly overpowered compared to what the other jobs get. That includes even SCH and BLM, which do have very good Gifts but still pale in comparison to the sheer brokenness of what BLU Gifts do.

I don't want to suggest a nerf... because I love the idea behind the BLU Gifts. It makes it a very flexible and powerful hybrid class and that's always what it should've been. But SE needs to understand that what BLU gained from those Gifts are not in balance with what other jobs get, at all.

I know most of you know this stuff, but I might as well post it so in the off chance this gets to SE they'll understand the point. Depending on their spellset, BLUs will get the following from their 100/1200 Gifts:
+~100 HP
+~35 MP
+~24 accuracy, attack, defense, evasion, magic accuracy or magic evasion
+8 magic attack bonus
+8 skillchain bonus
+4 magic defense bonus
+6% critical damage
+10 Store TP
+10% fast cast
+4% parry rate
+4% tenacity
+10-15% dual wield
Granted, you can only get maybe something like 5 to 6 of the above at a time, but the fact that its so flexible is in itself an advantage, and even ignoring that, the values they gain are completely out of whack. Given that they have all the extra flexibility you'd think they'd be getting values like 1/5 of what other jobs do, instead they're getting something lke half or more, and they can set about 5 of them at once.

Out of all the other Gifts in existence, the only other jobs I think that even come close to the level of usefulness of BLU's are BLM, RDM's 550 Gift (How about making Temper party-targetable), and NIN's 100 Gift (Not that NIN's 550/1200 aren't useful, but you'd think NIN would be one of the jobs it'd have been easy for them to think of new spells for. Yurin/Kakka: Ni/San probably would've had their uses and Migawari Ni would've been great).

SCH's 550 Gift is currently highly desirable only because of the magespam fad. If they ever nerfed Immanence or mage parties I believe it would go back to just being a good, but not broken, Gift.

The rest range from the decent but underwhelming (WAR, BST, BRD, RNG, SAM, COR, PUP, GEO), to the completely useless/laughable (MNK, WHM, TH(F), PLD, DRK, DRG, DNC, RUN). Seriously, why did you guys think something like Martial Arts +10 would be useful when everyone hits the delay cap without even trying now?

Admittedly, some of the existing Gifts could be saved via core adjustments- DRK's Drain III for instance, has the potential to beef up Souleater a ton, but they need to ungimp 2-handers and make it less of a hassle to use.

[Urthdigger]

I know I've complained about it enough this everywhere, but it bears repeating. MNK gifts also suck. Outside of -10 delay and the obligatory attack and accuracy bonuses, all of MNK's gifts are defensive, like bonuses to counter and guard. In an environment where even suggesting to tank on MNK is laughable, at best.

The JP categories aren't much better. Boosts accuracy while under hundred fists or focus? If I needed an extra 20 accuracy while those were up, you can bet I'll be positively useless when they're down, on any content that I have any right participating in those categories are worthless. Oh hey, I can get an extra 200 HP from chakra, that's neat I suppose. Dodge, Counterstance, Perfect Counter... those three categories will be so useful for all the not tanking I do. Speaking of those, counterstance's actual effect is kinda vague (it says it boosts power of counterattacks done with the stance up by boosting the dex bonus by 2 percent... So, counterattacks have WS mods now? Do I need to gear dex while tanking or just when I activated the ability?), and Perfect Counter's is just useless ("Increases the vitality bonus of Perfect Counter" And that bonus does what exactly?).

MNK only has 3 actually useful JP categories, Impetus (Up to +40 attack while it is up), kick attacks (+40 att/+20acc for free bonus attacks) and Footwork (+20 damage on kick attacks). Joy.

[OmnysValefor]

Sorry if this feels like I'm hijacking the thread, but I think it would be a better idea to just make a thread about JPs and Gifts of every job honestly, because that way if SE ever reads the thread they will have a better understanding of why certain things are over or underpowered when viewed in the game as whole, and that would give a better incentive to adjust them.

To put it more bluntly, how about we talk about the JPs and gifts of every job other than BLU. I love playing BLU and all, but I really would like to think even the most hardcore BLU around here can admit their JPs.

You are hijacking my thread, but for a good cause. I forgive you .

It's the synergy, potency, and practicality of blu categories combined with their gifts that make it so amazing. Not to mention, the +blue points category is quite powerful in it's own right. That's 1/3 more points. That's huge.

+~100 HP
+~35 MP
+~24 accuracy, attack, defense, evasion, magic accuracy or magic evasion
+8 magic attack bonus
+8 skillchain bonus
+4 magic defense bonus
+6% critical damage
+10 Store TP
+10% fast cast
+4% parry rate
+4% tenacity
+10-15% dual wield

Granted, you can only get maybe something like 5 to 6 of the above at a time, but the fact that its so flexible is in itself an advantage, and even ignoring that, the values they gain are completely out of whack. Given that they have all the extra flexibility you'd think they'd be getting values like 1/5 of what other jobs do, instead they're getting something lke half or more, and they can set about 5 of them at once.

Let's stop right there and point out that blu can get--passively--a more potent, permanent accuracy trait than lolFocus gives. Often overlooked by any but the more knowledgeable players, Accuracy Bonus is an important trait when accuracy is still an issue after whatever buffs your group can provide.

Out of all the other Gifts in existence, the only other jobs I think that even come close to the level of usefulness of BLU's are BLM, RDM's 550 Gift (How about making Temper party-targetable), and NIN's 100 Gift (Not that NIN's 550/1200 aren't useful, but you'd think NIN would be one of the jobs it'd have been easy for them to think of new spells for. Yurin/Kakka: Ni/San probably would've had their uses and Migawari Ni would've been great).

SCH's 550 Gift is currently highly desirable only because of the magespam fad. If they ever nerfed Immanence or mage parties I believe it would go back to just being a good, but not broken, Gift.

The rest range from the decent but underwhelming (WAR, BST, BRD, RNG, SAM, COR, PUP, GEO), to the completely useless/laughable (MNK, WHM, TH(F), PLD, DRK, DRG, DNC, RUN). Seriously, why did you guys think something like Martial Arts +10 would be useful when everyone hits the delay cap without even trying now?

I rather like Geo's gifts. I liked that in the beginning, I had to scrape and scrounge through gear to get close to, and to, 900 skill, but now I can swap out to things like conserve mp and -dt while casting.

One problem they clearly have is that some jobs are OP. The most OP player I know mains a DNC, loves it, and has no complaints. For instance, when he builds an SR run (to help others, he doesn't need SR gear except he wants a better Sari), he builds a group that is basically an altar to his dnc--COR, BRD, WHM, GEO, Tank.

GEO is also broken-OP. In a lot of battles, a nicely geared GEO (but lacking Idris) is more desirable than an r/e bard because the game has changed, bard has not, and GEO provides better buffs than Bard.

PLD, WHM, BRD, COR, GEO, DNC.

Forget things like building flourish and climactic flourish, he tp's so fast he self-skillchains without trying.

Admittedly, some of the existing Gifts could be saved via core adjustments- DRK's Drain III for instance, has the potential to beef up Souleater a ton, but they need to ungimp 2-handers and make it less of a hassle to use.

They need to ungimp melee DD is what they need to do. Many groups, the most you'll see on the boss is one melee dd aside from the tank, and that is because the closer you are to the boss, the more likely you are to die, unless you're the tank.

[OmnysValefor]

Seperately, I want to say, that I was worried this post would come across as "ME ME ME", but I see people agreeing that PLD (and other jobs) got the short end of the stick.

[OmnysValefor]

I know I've complained about it enough this everywhere, but it bears repeating. MNK gifts also suck. Outside of -10 delay and the obligatory attack and accuracy bonuses, all of MNK's gifts are defensive, like bonuses to counter and guard. In an environment where even suggesting to tank on MNK is laughable, at best.

The JP categories aren't much better. Boosts accuracy while under hundred fists or focus?

It's actually +40 acc under the effects of hundred fists, but I definitely see your point. The problem probably is that every job gets a category devoted to each 1-hour, and there's not really a lot of ways to amplify Hundred Fists. However, I'm sure that an attack bonus, crit rate, store tp+, or something like that would have been good. Also, monks should take less damage from spikes while HF is up (I actually always thought that should be part of Subtle Blow).

I hadn't looked at monk yet. I used to play monk, but have no interest recently. That really does suck overall, as do the gifts. And I have to agree with Kincard that Martial Arts enhancement really isn't that impressive either.

[Alhanelem]

You should really post in the appropriate section even if you think it's "dead." To me, that's not an excuse to not keep things organized. You may also be more likely to get a response as well, as I've seen the community team respond to a number of job specific issues in the job forum sections.

That aside, your suggestions are all solid. I only take exception to the Circle changes, because it's supposed to be a situational ability. Rather than make it just help against everything, I'd rather see the effect massively enhanced, by both increasing the damage reduction vs undead and also adding a damage bonus against undead.

[Kincard]

You are hijacking my thread, but for a good cause. I forgive you .

Thank ye. Again, sorry about that.

It's the synergy, potency, and practicality of blu categories combined with their gifts that make it so amazing.

Yeah, I think it's really hard to point to one specific thing and say that's what makes it all overpowered simply because of how much synergy there is in BLU's abilities. For example, the fact that the JT Bonus automatically upgrades BLU to Dual Wield III means they'll free up about 10 blue magic points just from that- with DW3 you only need a couple pieces of DW gear to cap delay after Erratic Flutter + Mighty Guard.

I'm having a hard time thinking of a way to "fix" it, because the same reason BLU is overpowered (the flexibility of its hybrid-ness) is the same reason its such a unique and fun job to play. Not to mention, even with all of BLU's fancy tools, they still run into all the same issues as every other melee right now anyway. If BLU needs to be adjusted, that should probably only be after they do an overall adjustment to melees.

One problem they clearly have is that some jobs are OP.

I think that's a really important distinction to make- whether the JP/Gifts themselves are broken, or if the job in isolation is broken to begin with, or they're simply useful/useless due to current trends (SCH for example). GEO is one of the most important jobs in the game right now, but I don't feel their JP/Gifts are really broken if you look at them in isolation (Their 100/550/1200 ones are kinda disappointing though IMO).

I guess I mostly focused on the 100/550/1200 ones, because those are the supposed to be the ones where they got creative. It's just kinda dumb to be seeing WAR getting a generic crit rate +10% while BLMs are getting completely new spells for those gifts (hell, tier VI didn't even have animations stored up and ready like Death/Utsusemi: San did). I really think they should take some time and consider going back and getting a bit more creative for the jobs that got gipped on 100/550/1200. Hell even some of the jobs that got something unique from those could probably use some retooling (Full Cure especially).

By the way, I guess it's important that the question of "do we really want JPs to be necessary" to be addressed- I would not mind if they decided to just go back and make JP back into a minor upgrade system, but that would require adjustment to not just the entire JP/Gift system but also much of the existing encounters and I'm guessing they're not going to be doing that. Even the ones past 1200, SE's supposed "effective end point" for Gifts, are important for almost every melee because most of them will get 13+ accuracy (amongst other bonuses) from one of the Gifts after that, which is definitely large enough to matter.