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  1. #1
    Player Lonnan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    28
    Character
    Lonnan
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    SCH Lv 99

    Suggestions for Rebalancing End-game Content

    It's a well established proposition (at least on the English forums) that end game content is horrible broken at least with regards to melee DD. It is also well established (again by the English playerbase) that the issue is endgame reliance on AoE attacks that cannot be blocked and are capable of instantly killing all non-tank DDS with one or AoE enfeebles that apply crippling affects that cause death or are unremovable. I think it would be possible (though admittedly time consuming) to take the current content and make it more melee friendly. Here are some suggestions.

    1. Buff HP across the board. Won't fix everything but it's cheap and easy to implement (and probably well overdue.)

    2. Limit a monsters TP selection. The problem most content is that mobs select tp attacks at random. That means it is impossible for a party to know whether the monsters next attack will be the AoE attack of insta-death or something that is manageable. Again there are options for how to handle tp attack selection:

    a. Make most AoE, high damage attacks dependent on a condition precedent (like how Wyrms only use spike flail when hate is drawn by a player attacking from behind). If attacks can be avoided through game play, it at least makes bad game play the reason for a party wipe and not bad game design.

    b. Routines. Ok, so I hated the FFXIV battle system because of this, but in FFXI terms it could be useful. If players have advanced warning that an AoE is about to occur, because the monster followed a specific pattern of TP attacks, then melee players could be out of range when the attacks are used.

    c. Increased prep time for TP attacks. If players have long enough to respond from the time the monster initiates a tp attack to the the time it is used, then the players have a chance to run out of range.

    d. Increase the instances of proc and lock. Give players the chance to disable certain attacks from being used by procing a weakness. Weakness procs should not last the entire fight, but the system should provide some notice when the proc wears off. That way a party that is paying attention can lock out the most deadly abilities.

    3. Make the most debilitating debuffs single target.

    4. Or make AoE debuffs avoidable via one of the methods mentioned above (see 2a-d).

    5. Remove debuff auras that cause amnesia, death, silence, etc., unless the aura is of a very short duration and that debuff wears off by moving out of range.

    6. Increase the potency of Stoneskin and other methods of damage absorbtion so that the amounts absorbed are actually life saving.

    7. Add more means of debuffing, enfeebling monsters that directly correlate with the survivability of TP moves.

    a. Amnesia!

    b. A spell that increases the readying time for TP moves in a method similar to Addle's effect on spell casting.

    c. More, stackable, methods for signficantly decreasing attack power and accuracy of monsters.

    These are just a few suggestions and I'd welcome more. Please try to avoid suggestions which decrease the abilities of other jobs though. The purpose is to make every job playable not your job playable at another jobs expense.
    (6)

  2. #2
    Player Olor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,134
    I would support this. The current situation leaves out most jobs. I'd also really like to see melee primary classes (DRK, BST, WAR, MNK, PUP, THF etc) get a minimum +100 acc boost too to allow more players to actually participate in content.

    Right now a lot of folks are in a catch 22 where their gear doesn't have enough acc for them to get gear with more acc on it... I think just 100 more base acc would push players up just enough to actually make the gear climb sensible. And it would allow folks with better gear to perhaps choose some different stuff vs "whatever has the most acc on it" which is actually a very boring thing to be forced to choose every time.
    (1)
    Last edited by Olor; 02-04-2016 at 08:37 AM.
    http://photobucket.com/gallery/http://s19.photobucket.com/user/soulchld4/media/Olorinus-Signature.jpg.html

  3. #3
    Player Hoshi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurstian
    Posts
    456
    Character
    Hoshiku
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RNG Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Olor View Post
    I would support this. The current situation leaves out most jobs. I'd also really like to see melee primary classes (DRK, BST, WAR, MNK, PUP, THF etc) get a minimum +100 acc boost too to allow more players to actually participate in content.

    Right now a lot of folks are in a catch 22 where their gear doesn't have enough acc for them to get gear with more acc on it... I think just 100 more base acc would push players up just enough to actually make the gear climb sensible. And it would allow folks with better gear to perhaps choose some different stuff vs "whatever has the most acc on it" which is actually a very boring thing to be forced to choose every time.
    I don't know about heavy class armor jobs because I refuse to play them but I know that for light armor melee jobs there's already a perfectly reasonable progression of accuracy gear. The rawhide armor from abyssea zitah does not require crazy high accuracy to obtain and gives a significant starting boost to acc. From there's it's probably reasonable to attempt t1 NMs in reisenjima for herc gear and more acc. I don't think it's accuracy that's keeping dedicated melee from playing melee jobs, it's more about the things that Lonnan listed (nasty aoe's, bs auras, quickness of tp moves).
    (1)

  4. #4
    Player Eaglestrike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    77
    Character
    Ladyofhonor
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoshi View Post
    I don't know about heavy class armor jobs because I refuse to play them but I know that for light armor melee jobs there's already a perfectly reasonable progression of accuracy gear. The rawhide armor from abyssea zitah does not require crazy high accuracy to obtain and gives a significant starting boost to acc. From there's it's probably reasonable to attempt t1 NMs in reisenjima for herc gear and more acc. I don't think it's accuracy that's keeping dedicated melee from playing melee jobs, it's more about the things that Lonnan listed (nasty aoe's, bs auras, quickness of tp moves).
    Even with that accuracy vs 135 content can be really poor for the majority of jobs. I was doing Behemoth UNM yesterday and in my full acc set I was roughly 30% lower in accuracy than the BLU. I've since fixed the big hole of my set (rawhide vest -> adhemar) but I'm still extremely far behind other jobs, specifically BLU. An LS mate asked me what my Acc was, before any buffs I'm at 1194 accuracy, with max accuracy gifts, going ramuh+1's x2, adhemar body/hands path A, herc feet with acc+35 augment, etc. An LS mate says he's at 1350 accuracy with sushi, so around 1250 without sushi. And he was in his low acc TP set, on BLU. This means a BLU can equip his DA/TA/STP sets and have more accuracy than just about all of the other melee.

    So OP says most melee need an accuracy+100 boost, I agree. But BLU needs to somehow not get it.
    (0)

  5. #5
    Player Kensagaku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    652
    Character
    Kensagaku
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglestrike View Post
    Even with that accuracy vs 135 content can be really poor for the majority of jobs. I was doing Behemoth UNM yesterday and in my full acc set I was roughly 30% lower in accuracy than the BLU. I've since fixed the big hole of my set (rawhide vest -> adhemar) but I'm still extremely far behind other jobs, specifically BLU. An LS mate asked me what my Acc was, before any buffs I'm at 1194 accuracy, with max accuracy gifts, going ramuh+1's x2, adhemar body/hands path A, herc feet with acc+35 augment, etc. An LS mate says he's at 1350 accuracy with sushi, so around 1250 without sushi. And he was in his low acc TP set, on BLU. This means a BLU can equip his DA/TA/STP sets and have more accuracy than just about all of the other melee.

    So OP says most melee need an accuracy+100 boost, I agree. But BLU needs to somehow not get it.
    There's still a pretty big chunk of gear difference there. Not only do they have +10~72 Acc depending on how many Acc Bonus traits they set and Gifts (though setting them all is silly, we have too many other major boosts to waste slots), but then you've got to look at all of the slots. Looking at my own gear in my standard no-acc aim set, I use:

    Colada (Acc+20 Aug, 40 Acc Total) / Nibiru Blade (Path A, 27 Acc total) / X / Ginsen (for the STP, but Acc+5)
    Adhemar Bonnet (No Acc) / Asperity Necklace (No Acc) / Brutal Earring (No Acc) / Cessance Earring (Acc+6)
    Adhemar Jacket (+25 Acc) / Herc Hands (+33 Acc Aug, so +45 total) / Petrov Ring (No Acc) / Epona's Ring (No Acc)
    Bleating Mantle (No Acc) / Shetal Stone (No Acc) / Samnuha Tights (+15 Acc) / Herc Feet (+30 Acc Aug, so ~40 Total)

    This puts me at around 1150ish Acc or so between the acc in my gear and the high DEX light armor gets. Best part? Aside from weapons, your THF can get all of those, and get similar tools. Skinflayer/Taming Sari, or Odium for slightly lower options. I'm sure there are better alternatives too. Did you check the BLU, while you are at it? To see if he had top-tier gear? Because I can change out a lot of the listed options above and jump my Acc even higher. Honed Tathlum/Falcon Eye, Whirlpool Mask, Combatant's Torque, Mars/Patricius Rings (I lack Ramuh+1s), Letalis Mantle, Anguinus or Hurch'lan Sash, my aug'd Herc legs... etc. It's not really just a BLU thing, as the most they're getting from traits is an extra 35 or so Acc. Most of the gear a BLU can equip, you can equip too. So don't be so quick to shoot 'em down. >.>
    (0)
    [Kensagaku - formerly of Kujata] - http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Valefor/Kensagaku

  6. #6
    Player Ulth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    578
    Character
    Andrewviii
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    On a different forum someone pointed out how ridiculous tp feed is. Changing that could be one way to lower the amount of tp move spam. They could bring back subtle blow by uncapping it, and maybe also adjusting buffs that effect it by making Auspice target party member instead of self, increasing the duration of Conspirator to 5 minutes, and having Myoshu: Ichi be AoE.
    (2)

  7. #7
    Player Reain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    62
    Character
    Reain
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    I think there's more problems than just accuracy and survivability. Not that they aren't important ones.

    HP scaling on monsters is very severe which discourages including people.
    BLU and BST AoE damage is very high and doesn't need as much support. Why would you bring a melee DD who can only single target and requires a tank/healer/2x support and who will probably die anyway and do less damage.
    Magic Bursting is so strong. There's no reason to bring 2-3 DDs when a SCH can skillchain solo without missing. Other than that only really a SAM or DNC can self skillchain reliably. I think Magic burst potency needs to be tied to the number of unique participants of the skillchain or something.

    I'm interested to see how the February update changes things. If done wrong it could end up a huge buff for BLU. A Decent buff for SAM and DNC, and no effect on other melee classes
    (3)
    Last edited by Reain; 02-05-2016 at 12:51 AM.

  8. #8
    Player Ketaru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    215
    Character
    Ketaru
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Given the focus on skillchain and magic burst damage these days, maybe something ought to be done about how skillchains are executed. TP gain is so easy these days, that to just have some melee sit at 1000+ because they will interupt the current skillchain and magic burst seems like a big factor in why having more melee, compared to another job, is redundent. Maybe WSing out of turn shouldn't prevent a magic burst, for example.

    Other than that only really a SAM or DNC can self skillchain reliably.
    I have heard RNG/SAM can actually skillchain pretty reliably, which is something I'm working on right now. Granted, RNG still has to stand in range of some of the more debilitating AoE attacks, but it's something.
    (0)
    Last edited by Ketaru; 02-05-2016 at 01:16 AM.
    "NeED★RdM? PLeaSe sENd★teLL!"

  9. #9
    Player Ulth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    578
    Character
    Andrewviii
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    Someone also suggested lowering the minimum time before the next skillchain can happen.
    (0)

  10. #10
    Player Vae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    244
    Character
    Vaelira
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    You can't rebalance something that has NEVER been balanced. Square has NO CLUE what balance actually means.
    (1)

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