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  1. #21
    Player Urthdigger's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Bastok
    Posts
    313
    Character
    Urthdigger
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Kensagaku View Post
    ...You do realize that to get to these "high level endgame fights," players had to actually fight through the middle tiers and get the gear themselves, yeah? To get to this "relevant content"? You say it's difficult for "mediocre-119-geared" players to get the gear for this, but unless there is <6 of you and you are all very antisocial enough to not want to work together, there's plenty of opportunities to get this gear. Alluvion Skirmish > Zi'tah (if I can solo most of these with ease, barring that stupid tauri, then I'm sure a pickup party can do it) > Ru'aun and so forth. Work in pieces, don't just expect to jump up to the highest tier right away.
    The problem is finding people to do those. Hell, the only time I've been able to get some help on Escha - Zitah mobs was a BST who flat out told me to sit down, shut up, and don't touch anything because I'd be more of a burden from TP feeding than a help.
    (1)
    He once sold his soul to Promathia for a rare drop. He later won it back in a drinking contest, before beating up the twilight god for good measure.
    He's won dance-off trophies from the Republic of Bastok, the Duchy of Jeuno, and the Yagudo Theomilitary.
    He's won entire arguments with a single leer.
    He is the most interesting galka in the world.

  2. #22
    Player Kensagaku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    652
    Character
    Kensagaku
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    Can you describe your gear to me, then? Because with Trusts and a modest set of Taeon gear + some actual knowledge and gear swapping, most of them are pretty easy mobs. Tauri and Tiger aside, anyway, they're gimmicky.
    (0)
    [Kensagaku - formerly of Kujata] - http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Valefor/Kensagaku

  3. #23
    Player Lonnan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    28
    Character
    Lonnan
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    SCH Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Olor View Post
    I agree that endgame accuracy is just stupid right now, and it has created a huge gap that mediocre-119 geared players can't bridge. I mean, if the idea is to make sure 3/4 of your playerbase can never participate in endgame it's well designed. Otherwise it's just awful.

    I have full 119 gear on a couple jobs but it does me no good because folks all are doing the latest content which I can't even touch (literally)... and my old go-to buff job, Bard, is not really desireable anymore. Basically I feel like if I don't level and gear GEO I am never going to be able to play relevant content again...

    I really wish there was some middle ground content that folks could do solo to get them to the point where they are welcome in parties but it doesn't seem to exist.
    Part of the issue is what Kensagaku stated, you have to play the tier game in order to access better equipment to be able to do better content. The other part of the issue is that the ilvl system is incredibly deceptive. HINT all ilvl equipment is not created equal. Since SE decided to cap levels at 99 and handle additional levels through gear and job points, the ilvl system should have increased as gear stats increased in relation to new content. For whatever reason SE kept the ilvl cap at 119. That doesn't mean that JSE reforged gear is equal to delve/skirmish gear is equal to Escha gear. In reality, Escha gear probably should have an ilvl gradient between 122 and 129 but it doesn't. Moral of the story, ilvl is a made up classification and it's gets more and more irrelevant the more content they make.
    (1)

  4. #24
    Player Ketaru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    215
    Character
    Ketaru
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnan View Post
    Part of the issue is what Kensagaku stated, you have to play the tier game in order to access better equipment to be able to do better content. The other part of the issue is that the ilvl system is incredibly deceptive. HINT all ilvl equipment is not created equal. Since SE decided to cap levels at 99 and handle additional levels through gear and job points, the ilvl system should have increased as gear stats increased in relation to new content. For whatever reason SE kept the ilvl cap at 119. That doesn't mean that JSE reforged gear is equal to delve/skirmish gear is equal to Escha gear. In reality, Escha gear probably should have an ilvl gradient between 122 and 129 but it doesn't. Moral of the story, ilvl is a made up classification and it's gets more and more irrelevant the more content they make.
    It was probably done to control what level your Trusts spawn at. To my knowledge, they don't get stronger as your own attributes get stronger. At some point, they will become a liability in endgame content rather than an asset.
    The problem is finding people to do those. Hell, the only time I've been able to get some help on Escha - Zitah mobs was a BST who flat out told me to sit down, shut up, and don't touch anything because I'd be more of a burden from TP feeding than a help.
    The TP feed argument is rather weak on most of the Escha Zi'tah NMs. I'm more inclined to think he didn't want you to mess up skillchains. Even while helping returning players catch up, I find I view the party as having one less trust, not one more player. And with the ease of building 1000 TP these days, I might as well tell someone, "Never weaponskill, because you're inevitably going to mess up the skillchain." And because my trusts won't cast the spells I want because there was no skillchain, and because it is ultimately hurting my own damage because I can't Magic Burst, it's just better to ask someone to never weaponskill. Which, for a DD job, is nearly tantamout to "Don't do anything."

    Therein probaby lies the real thing going on here- the bar for being able to work with trusts is higher for some jobs than others. Just taking some of the perks of- for example- being a RDM into a account: my healer trusts are less likely to run out of MP; I am capable of magic bursting off the skillchains being made (this is important not only for the damage, but also triggering some of the gimmick weaknesses); I can use the full gamut of enfeebles whereas Arciela only uses Paralyze, Slow, and Addle. In fact, the Sword jobs- PLD, BLU, and RDM- are all very capable of self-Light and self-Darkness. If another meleer is just gonna interfere with that, does that not make them redundent?

    So yes, a lot of people solo these NMs, but it's always the usual suspects: PLD, BLM, RDM, SMN, BST, BLU, SCH (although I sometimes see this one RNG who is always soloing, she is fun to watch). And I suspect that is because they simply work better with trusts than other jobs.

    Years ago, this probably wouldn't have mattered as much since soloability was seen as a minor perk rather than a boon of a job. But with a smaller and more insular player base, suddenly your job's ability to solo really matters in current content.
    (1)
    "NeED★RdM? PLeaSe sENd★teLL!"

  5. #25
    Player Urthdigger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Bastok
    Posts
    313
    Character
    Urthdigger
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Kensagaku View Post
    Can you describe your gear to me, then? Because with Trusts and a modest set of Taeon gear + some actual knowledge and gear swapping, most of them are pretty easy mobs. Tauri and Tiger aside, anyway, they're gimmicky.
    That's actually precisely what I've got, minus a naga instead of taeon bodypiece. There's still the matter of what to do once one hits the point where outside help is required. You're either asking people to go back to obsolete old content that does nothing for them, or to leech on content you've got no business being in.
    (0)
    He once sold his soul to Promathia for a rare drop. He later won it back in a drinking contest, before beating up the twilight god for good measure.
    He's won dance-off trophies from the Republic of Bastok, the Duchy of Jeuno, and the Yagudo Theomilitary.
    He's won entire arguments with a single leer.
    He is the most interesting galka in the world.

  6. #26
    Player Kensagaku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    652
    Character
    Kensagaku
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    The thing is that most of it is workable, and the stuff that isn't is stuff you can probably get help for. Most of the T1s in Zi'tah are soloable, and many of those pieces still have many uses, so if you're having a hard time it shouldn't be too bad to get others to assist you. I still use 4/5 Naga for various uses, 3/5 Rawhide, 5/5 Pursuer's (albeit on my same-account mule since I don't play ranged jobs on my main), 2/5 Despair, etc. Short of someone having every single piece, there's still a reason to go back.

    Once you hit T2s, yeah, that's where you start to hit the wall, and it's annoyance I myself am working to surmount, because otherwise I'm forced to rely on LSmates to pop t3s for me to fight (ofc I still need help with fighting t3s so that's okay). Nibiru weapons are generally still good, particularly the sword and club for BLUs because the former has a nice chunk of accuracy on Path... B, I think and the latter is one of their better nuke tools. The other Nibiru items are so-so from a glance, but still a step up and likely something these other people who have not progressed would like. T3s you're going to need a party for and knowledge of each NM, but you're going to find that T3s are still fairly relevant content.

    When you get to Ru'Aun, it's much the same. About half of the T1s are easily soloable; the Caturae suck because some have doom gaze and your tank trusts just aren't smart enough to turn away. Atop that, even if you tank and turn away, your DD trusts just don't do enough damage. This is unfortunately where you hit another wall, but there are still people who want the abjurations, so it's still doable. It's always worth shouting, if nothing else to get a tank or DD to pair with you and you can fill the rest with support Trusts. T2/3 Ru'Aun is always in demand between weapons and abjurations, and the fact that the fights are tricky to solo. I've done Naphula solo a few times, and I've gotten Hanbi down to 5%ish more than once, but that's all I've been able to do and I'm moderately well geared.

    And once you've gotten to Reisenjima, you're up to modern content. At this point you should have some decent accuracy gear between Abjuration pieces and Zi'tah armor, not to mention accessories. An example of an acc set for... let's just use MNK for now. Gonna make some assumptions on gear you should have by this point:

    Nibiru Santi Path A (+25 Acc) | Empty | Empty | Honed Tathlum (+15 Acc)
    Whirlpool Mask (+25 Acc) | Ej Necklace (+15 Acc) | Steelflash Earring (+8 Acc) | Bladeborn Earring
    Rawhide Vest (+15 Acc)* | Rawhide Gloves (+20 Acc, tons of DEX)* | Patricius Ring (+8 Acc) | Enlivened Ring (+6 Acc, may have name wrong, DEX sparks ring)
    Anchoret's Mantle (+20 Acc base) | Anguinus Belt (+15 Acc) | Bhikku Hose (+13 Acc) | Rawhide Boots (+18 Acc)*

    Note that all of your Rawhide pieces can be augmented with HP+50/Acc+15/Evasion+20 on Path B, so that's an additional +45 Acc you can get on that set above, for a grand total of +248 Accuracy in that gear. With capped h2h skill and Sublime Sushi, you should be hitting things modestly well. Again, this is your post-Zi'tah setup, and you will need to think carefully through the NMs for the Rawhide pieces: Cunnast for boots, Gestalt for hands (watch those Dread Spikes, bring a Dispel trust), and Vidala for body, the last of which you'll need help on.
    (0)
    [Kensagaku - formerly of Kujata] - http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Valefor/Kensagaku

  7. #27
    Player Lonnan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    28
    Character
    Lonnan
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    SCH Lv 99
    I would also suggest consider taking up another class if you aren't completely loathe to playing another job. When I came back after a year+ break, I found myself severely undergeared. In order to get invites to parties, I spent a week skilling, cping, and gearing geo. GEO can be successful at its core job with just upgrades to its various AF sets (some of 1, most of 2, all of 3 ). Sure your nukes will suck, but people want GEOs for their bubbles not their nukes (please note im not saying a good GEO shouldn't have a solid nuking set, Im saying that a just starting out GEO with a solid geomancy set is still an asset to a party). Using GEO I was able to quickly pick up a good nuking set and add gear to other favorite jobs. Now I have SCH (my main) geared well enough I can reliably solo all the ZiTah T1s (save one which I can solo on blu), most the T2s, and all the non-caturae Sky T1s (haven't tried T2s solo yet). Plus I can easily fill in parties on either SCH or GEO. Luckily I prefer mage and support jobs, so GEO was not much of a hardship for me. But even if GEO isn't your cup of tea, sometimes it's better to work within the system the way it is rather than stand on the outside lamenting your exclusion.
    (0)

  8. #28
    Player Olor's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,134
    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnan View Post
    Part of the issue is what Kensagaku stated, you have to play the tier game in order to access better equipment to be able to do better content. The other part of the issue is that the ilvl system is incredibly deceptive. HINT all ilvl equipment is not created equal. Since SE decided to cap levels at 99 and handle additional levels through gear and job points, the ilvl system should have increased as gear stats increased in relation to new content. For whatever reason SE kept the ilvl cap at 119. That doesn't mean that JSE reforged gear is equal to delve/skirmish gear is equal to Escha gear. In reality, Escha gear probably should have an ilvl gradient between 122 and 129 but it doesn't. Moral of the story, ilvl is a made up classification and it's gets more and more irrelevant the more content they make.
    I know, but the tier game is mostly closed off, there are no shouts, the few time I've tried shouting for unity NMs I can actually hit once in awhile, no one is interested and I don't feel confident in building a party for NMs that I don't know the strategy for. It's a vicious circle, can't get gear to get the gear. I have most of the Taeon set and some bits and bobs (and I totally know not all 119 is alike but I've done my best to get what I can).

    The issue is the hardcore players are done with middle tier content so it's just scrubs staring at the vast middle tier with no way and no guidance to climb it. A lot of my issue is that I don't want to lead parties if I haven't already beat the content at least once. I know it's holding me back but I don't want to make people mad if we can't beat it...

    The INSANE need for accuracy and the sidelining of all buff jobs that are not GEO has only made it worse. I can't even get in a party to get job points... how am I supposed to progress? I used to be able to bard for stuff since the gear requirement (outside of instruments) was lower - mostly it is JSE and most of that can be upgraded to a certain extent solo. Hell before BRD AF3 was upgraded I was still rocking it and doing fine besides taking too much damage if hit while singing... as were most bards because there wasn't actually anything much better for us for a lot of macros.

    I am not asking for gear to be handed to me (that's boring) but it would be nice if there was an actual reasonable solo path for folks to slowly climb to higher gear and towards endgame. Right now the only gear "progress" available seems to be spending more and more gil on the augment lottery and that has limited returns. Or straight up buying drops. Or hoping someone pities you and lets you leech content. None of that is particularly fun.

    It would also be helpful if ilevel was actually reflective of gear power. I am finding it hard to even compare a lot of the stuff released these days. Ilevel has issues but at least for awhile there it was helpful for judging gear somewhat. Now it's like "which dog's breakfast is better?" and it's hard to say. Not to mention a lot of it is sidegrades and macro peices that make a big difference but take a lot of work to actually get good use out of. It wasn't so bad back in the day since the differences between a well geared 75 player and a mediocre 75 player existed but it wasn't such a chasm... and less on the gear made it easier to judge what was worth getting.

    Anyway, I just am finding the game a bit discouraging at the moment and I don't have a lot of urge to play. I keep resubbing because nostalgia but then I get back and I am like "oh yeah, the only thing I can really do is solo outdated content... I can't make meaningful progress on this character... this is boring."

    I miss abyssea/voidwatch era. Back then it was easy for folks to get caught up enough to participate and there were lots of slots for different things. Like, even though my BLU was not geared well enough to be a damage dealer, I could still proc like a boss in voidwatch. It meant I could participate in group activities with a chance to improve my gear.

    Since ilevel era I've always felt like I am too far behind to participate much. Bard helped me a bit, but never enough to catch me up (partially because I am a sporadic player) but at least I could get into parties for stuff. Anyway, sorry if I sound whiny I just feel like the devs have done an awful job of bringing in a balanced and level endgame. I miss the days where endgame was flat with a lot of different activities that most people could participate in.
    (1)
    Last edited by Olor; 01-28-2016 at 04:26 AM.
    http://photobucket.com/gallery/http://s19.photobucket.com/user/soulchld4/media/Olorinus-Signature.jpg.html

  9. #29
    Player Kensagaku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    652
    Character
    Kensagaku
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    Gonna address a few points in order:

    1) You're not confident building a party for an NM you don't know the strategy for? Do some research in BG's threads, they have whole sections on all three Escha areas within the first pages. Or even better, do what those forerunners did and throw yourself at it to see what happens. At worst, you're out some accolades or some fish mithkabobs, both of which are very easy to get. The "high-tier players" didn't just magically know how to fight these mobs. There were plenty of wipes in early experiences. If people get angry and quit after one or two losses, then they don't have the patience to progress in this game anyway. We build and learn from losses.

    2) The "insane" Accuracy needed is in most cases not that insane until you jump to the higher-tier fights. Middle-tier stuff, I can hit accurately on my un-Gifted RUN at about 1050ish accuracy, and Sushi makes it trivial. Most of what you're going to need is going to be in the form of accessories; Ej Necklace off of the AH is +15, Steelflash/Bladeborn Earrings or Dudgeon/Heartseeker Earrings are +8 Acc/Atk and a bonus, easily soloed by doing individual NMs as opposed to Delve. Anguinus Belt from Abyssea era is easy, that's another +15, and then you can do a number of capes, like Kayapa for +10, or many of the job-specific ones. Using BST, for example, turn accolades into Refractives and work on getting an Acc+ augment to pair with the +10 already on it. Visible slots are generally going to be Taeon at first, but it's still something you can target simply by using Snowslit stones. If you need gil, farm Alexandrite (5~6k each on Valefor) or Dynamis, and build sparks to convert to gil. Etc etc. It's all tiers, like stated.

    3) Back in the day, that difference between a mediocre and a well-geared 75 was just as bad as it is now. I remember comparing my BLU to others, doing a SATA Cannonball and falling several hundred points short (which back then was a lot!), comparing gearsets and seeing that I'm missing HQ gear or other similar. Where my DRG was there to maybe hit things but if you weren't a SAM and couldn't deal the damage that they got with their SA WS then you were mostly just fodder. The difference is about the same, it's just more pronounced now, imo.
    (1)
    [Kensagaku - formerly of Kujata] - http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Valefor/Kensagaku

  10. #30
    Player Olor's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    2,134
    1) I read threads but people are so much better geared than me that the strategies are meaningless. High-tiered players have access to better gear so experimenting works better. There aren't a bunch of scrubs posting their scrub lives on BG. There just aren't. I realize part of this I just need to get over if I want to succeed but people can be awful when you fail...and despite what people might think I really am not out to gimp stuff up and ruin people's fun.

    2) I usually have under 1K acc with food. Thanks for some of the suggestions, didn't think of using Anguinus belt (I own it) because it's olde... anyway I have theacc cape from unity (grounded mantle +1) and the steelflash etc earrings and the mantis eye from kaggen but it is not enough to help me hit things. Will pick up a Ej necklace. Still, acc requirements are pretty bonkers for most stuff. It's weird that I need to use pre-99 gear to improve my acc... in an ilevel situation. Shows how out of whack acc requirements are.

    3) You know what I will take your word for it since I never got to 75 back in the day (I originally played at NA PC release but had to give up my char, then played again around WoTG but gave up my char... then finally got this char in 2011) but in abyssea/voidwatch era I could do endgame (real endgame) even as a casual. Now I can't.
    (0)
    Last edited by Olor; 01-28-2016 at 09:51 AM.
    http://photobucket.com/gallery/http://s19.photobucket.com/user/soulchld4/media/Olorinus-Signature.jpg.html

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