How do Magic Mortar and Flame Holder interface?

[Roja323]

Also saw the trend here:
0x- 408 + (4263*1.025*1.030)*1.5 = 7168
1x- 408 + (4263*1.100*1.020)*1.5 = 7569
2x- 408 + (4263*1.175*1.010)*1.5 = 8001
3x- 408 + (4263*1.250*1.000)*1.5 = 8401

put simply, at 3k tp: skill + 1.5(hpdif)(1.025+(0.075*x))(1.03-(0.01*x))
x = number of maneuvers


Where if u assume the bonus given by flame holder, you can see that there is a secondary bonus that decreases by a 0.010 for each additional fire maneuver, i dont know enough about ws equations (ftp str etc) to understand what that extra value is comming from, it just seems way to coincidental that it lines up perfectly now.

[dasva]

So using the first few I came up with a formula of: Dmg= skill + 1.5 Hpdif (1 +.0625(number of maneuvers+1)).

It worked great for most of it the numbers except a few things that I think might just be recording errors.

For example it doesn't work on the 4th result where the formula gets 3255 but it says 3225... reason I think that might be an error is pretty easy to mix up a 2 and 5 and up until that point for that hp diff each maneuver was adding 141-142 dmg and 3255 would be another 142 while 3225 would only be a 112 increase. Seems unlikely that the last maneuver would suddenly do a lot less

It then continues to work until 4222 diff at which point it's all off.... but the formula is right on if you assume 4248 hp diff. Rarely small change of hp which could easily be not noticing a hit or some gear change

Then there was the last set... honestly no idea what is going on there. Up until that point with the one exception noted above each maneuver added the same amount of dmg within 1 because of rounding. But on the last set the first maneuver adds 383 the second adds 432 and the third adds 400. Which makes all kinds of no sense at all. Seems like something was changing each test there. Maybe ionis or something doing weird stuff? Gear changing because changes for regening idk. Anyways pretty sure some super fishy is up with the last set since it completely breaks from what all the other sets do ie the linear dmg progression from manuevers

[VahnEris]

Also saw the trend here:
0x- 408 + (4263*1.025*1.030)*1.5 = 7168
1x- 408 + (4263*1.100*1.020)*1.5 = 7569
2x- 408 + (4263*1.175*1.010)*1.5 = 8001
3x- 408 + (4263*1.250*1.000)*1.5 = 8401

put simply, at 3k tp: skill + 1.5(hpdif)(1.025+(0.075*x))(1.03-(0.01*x))
x = number of maneuvers


Where if u assume the bonus given by flame holder, you can see that there is a secondary bonus that decreases by a 0.010 for each additional fire maneuver, i dont know enough about ws equations (ftp str etc) to understand what that extra value is comming from, it just seems way to coincidental that it lines up perfectly now.

If your values are right, that confirms that the decimal place is in the wrong spot SPECIFICALLY for Magic Mortar. 250% damage is represented by 2.50, not 1.250. 1.250 would be 25% damage. The way the choose to word this is awkward. That's probably what annoys me the most about it. I can't tell if they are just wording things strangely or if there is actually a difference in what they report vs. what is actually happening. Except I know that isn't true because of Flame Holder works with Bone Crusher, for example. In fact, I think tonight I will do testing on Bone Crusher, which is far damning than just Magic Mortar by itself.

So using the first few I came up with a formula of: Dmg= skill + 1.5 Hpdif (1 +.0625(number of maneuvers+1)).

It worked great for most of it the numbers except a few things that I think might just be recording errors.

For example it doesn't work on the 4th result where the formula gets 3255 but it says 3225... reason I think that might be an error is pretty easy to mix up a 2 and 5 and up until that point for that hp diff each maneuver was adding 141-142 dmg and 3255 would be another 142 while 3225 would only be a 112 increase. Seems unlikely that the last maneuver would suddenly do a lot less

It then continues to work until 4222 diff at which point it's all off.... but the formula is right on if you assume 4248 hp diff. Rarely small change of hp which could easily be not noticing a hit or some gear change

Then there was the last set... honestly no idea what is going on there. Up until that point with the one exception noted above each maneuver added the same amount of dmg within 1 because of rounding. But on the last set the first maneuver adds 383 the second adds 432 and the third adds 400. Which makes all kinds of no sense at all. Seems like something was changing each test there. Maybe ionis or something doing weird stuff? Gear changing because changes for regening idk. Anyways pretty sure some super fishy is up with the last set since it completely breaks from what all the other sets do ie the linear dmg progression from manuevers

If there are reporting errors, it's more likely to be in the first four. Those were done at a different time than the last set, I did them before the Devs said anything. That being said, it's possible. It's also possible that Magic Mortar just does weird shit sometimes. I observed it doing 12 more damage when I removed 20 skill trying to see if the damage from skill was being amplified somehow. It wasn't, btw. And the only difference between those two tests was the removal of 20 skill.

I have sterile macros I make specifically for testing, and I manually equip/unequip any regen gear so that I know exactly what is on. There is no way for my gear to change when I am doing testing. That being said, I'm going to do more this evening I think. One sample set is pretty much a "Results inconclusive, not enough data" as far as I am concerned.

[VahnEris]

So I did some testing with Flame Holder and Bone Crusher this morning. I parsed 10 good WS within each parameter, added all values together and divided by ten for average damage. All gear that modifies the puppet was unequiped. All commands performed from menu. Food was Shiromochi. The numbers I have are too low for absolute accuracy, more testing would be required for a clearer picture. I'd like anyone else who plays PUP to do their own tests and report their findings. Numbers provided, as mentioned, are only rough values as the amount of testing was somewhat low. Any WS that did not return the proper amount of TP for all three hits was not counted.

Notes about Bone Crusher: It's a very consistent WS. The Devs say it has +166% damage bonus, three hits, does not critical and has NO TP BONUS. Mod is Vit, which does not increase from fire maneuvers so that will not affect testing.

No Flame Holder(ATK: 1201)

Average Damage = 1806 (base)

Flame Holder, no fire maneuvers(Atk: 1201)

Average Damage = 1911 (1.05 times higher than base)

Flame Holder, 1x Fire Maneuver(Atk: 1232)

Average Damage = 2952 (1.63 times higher than base)

Flame Holder, 2x Fire Maneuvers(Atk: 1259)

Average Damage = 3988 (2.20 times higher than base)

Flame Holder, 3x Fire Maneuvers(Atk: 1290)

Average Damage = 4902 (2.71 times higher than base)

Do you see what I am getting at here? EVEN IF Flame Holder only applies to the Damage from HP portion of Magic Mortar, THAT'S THE BIGGEST PART OF THE DAMAGE. The amount that Flame Holder is adding to Magic Mortar is NOWHERE NEAR what it adds to Bone Crusher. String Shredder and Arcuballista are other WS I tested with Flame Holder after the update, and their damage scaled the same way it does with Bone Crusher.

Maybe it's working as intended, but it's not working as described.

[Roja323]

In all fairness, they stated at 3k tp or 1 hp, you dont get a dmg bonus from flame holder. So testing at 1k or 2k tp and half hp is probably the only way to see if it is adding a bonus or not.

It could just be that if tp =3k, or hp =1 , then bonus gets divided by 10 and added to 1, so 1.5-> 1.150