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  1. #11
    Player Faithful's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    22
    Character
    Faithful
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    I deactivated my account until this Bst nerf fiasco is fixed. I agree with what others are saying: restore the original range and have the pets damage decrease the further away you are. Maybe with Job Points the damage can be increased back some.
    (7)

  2. #12
    Player bazookatooth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    364
    Character
    Bazookatooth
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    THF Lv 1
    Or you know... Put the range back where it was and address the issues with other DD jobs getting killed too easy instead. Doing enough damage is almost never a problem in this game. It's people getting killed if they engage the NM that is the problem. Fix that instead of breaking more things.
    (13)

  3. #13
    Player Alhanelem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Bastok
    Posts
    10,095
    Character
    Tahngarthor
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Camate View Post
    We’ve been receiving a lot of feedback about this.

    Since there are monsters with varying sizes, if we make adjustments so that the somewhat larger monsters are the benchmark, then the distance in which commands can be used will be no different than before. While we can’t make any promises at the time, we will be looking into changing the target of pet commands, shifting them from the master to the pet. We believe that the way it feels to play will become very different, so we would like to hear everyone’s feedback once it is implemented.
    *There is a possibility that commands cannot be accepted when pets are out of your field of vision.
    Range was not the problem to begin with and this change should be reverted. Address the real problems. If something else needs to be nerfed then maybe they should look into that, but the range change has been shown to do nothing but make the job more inconvenient and frustrating to play without solving any real balance issue.
    (10)

  4. #14
    Player Kraggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    400
    Character
    Kraggy
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    THF Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Camate View Post
    We’ve been receiving a lot of feedback about this.

    Since there are monsters with varying sizes, if we make adjustments so that the somewhat larger monsters are the benchmark, then the distance in which commands can be used will be no different than before. While we can’t make any promises at the time, we will be looking into changing the target of pet commands, shifting them from the master to the pet. We believe that the way it feels to play will become very different, so we would like to hear everyone’s feedback once it is implemented.
    *There is a possibility that commands cannot be accepted when pets are out of your field of vision.
    How about you learn not to fix that which ain't broke?
    (6)

  5. #15
    Player Malthar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    674
    Character
    Malthar
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Hey, don't you pick on Camate! If you have something against Camate you'll have to go through me first!
    It's not Camate who "fixed" things that aren't broke. It's the devs.
    (2)

  6. #16
    Player Tidis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    437
    Character
    Tydis
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    While I do think the distance nerf wasn't really the right target to level the playing field, it at least gives BST more to think about rather than sit back and spam Ready.

    That said front line damage is a problem, I remember back when VW was at it's most popular they talked about making AoEs deal less damage to people who weren't targeted, couldn't they just apply something similar to every AoE move by monsters? That way it would be easier to keep front line DDs up and BST max distance could be reverted, hell at that point they may be willing to fight alongside their pet on the front lines.
    (1)

  7. #17
    Player bazookatooth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    364
    Character
    Bazookatooth
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    THF Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Tidis View Post
    While I do think the distance nerf wasn't really the right target to level the playing field, it at least gives BST more to think about rather than sit back and spam Ready.
    It's just annoying. That's all it is. It's like putting hot sauce on a dog's food just to be a jerk. The dog's still gonna eat it, but he will hate you for it. That's pretty much how a lot of people feel right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidis View Post
    That said front line damage is a problem, I remember back when VW was at it's most popular they talked about making AoEs deal less damage to people who weren't targeted, couldn't they just apply something similar to every AoE move by monsters? That way it would be easier to keep front line DDs up and BST max distance could be reverted, hell at that point they may be willing to fight alongside their pet on the front lines.
    They need to just straight up add HP and DEF/MDB to most jobs. They did a good job fixing the emnity issues imo, but the amount of damage that pretty much any job can take compared to PLD is ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camate View Post
    we will be looking into changing the target of pet commands, shifting them from the master to the pet.
    I'm honestly not even sure what this means. If the distance from master to pet remains the same, how does reversing the target change anything functionally. Did you mean that you are considering changing commands to target the monster? Because while that would allow us to issue commands from the opposite side, it would also anchor us to whatever monster the pet is currently targeting which would effectively lock us from issuing commands at all when there is more than one target because pets change target at random when there is more than one monster attacking. That would be a horrible change. If that is what you were thinking, please, please, please don;t. There are a bazillion other more important things you could be doing. Just put BST back how it was and go fix something that actually serves a purpose other than to annoy people.
    (7)
    Last edited by bazookatooth; 10-09-2015 at 02:56 AM.

  8. #18
    Player machini's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    338
    Character
    Ivlilla
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by bazookatooth View Post
    It's just annoying. That's all it is. It's like putting hot sauce on a dog's food just to be a jerk. The dog's still gonna eat it, but he will hate you for it. That's pretty much how a lot of people feel right now.



    They need to just straight up add HP and DEF/MDB to most jobs. They did a good job fixing the emnity issues imo, but the amount of damage that pretty much any job can take compared to PLD is ridiculous.
    I honestly think a huge part of this problem is at this point they expect Aegis and Ochain to be something any PLD doing end game content is going to have, period, so they design things around that. 4000 magic damage AoE moves won't kill your tank when he has -87.5% MDT. And 3000 physical damage TP moves won't kill your PLD with -50% PDT who happens to be wearing full heavy armor with fully merited Protectra V on.

    Other jobs do have abilities that allow them to mitigate massive damage, such as Third Eye, the first hit of Fan Dance, and Sacrosanctity. The problem is that these abilities have too long of a cooldown to be at all useful for mitigating high damage attacks in the current day and age.

    Things were different when it might take 60 to 120 seconds, depending on conditions, to get TP to WS at 75 cap. These days, it's entirely possible, due to high amounts of multiattack, OAx, and capped attack speed, to come out of a WS animation with enough TP to immediately do another WS. The amount of TP feed to high level mobs is extreme, and probably an order of magnitude higher than was ever intended.

    Increasing the overall HP, DEF, and MDB of players is one way to go about it. It lowers the marginal utility of BST pets, since they are no longer required to survive all the damage from those high damage AoE moves that would kill players. However, a decently geared PLD is practically invincible as it is. I remember doing one Plouton run where I was WHM (wanted to get a clear), and I literally never cast anything above Cure 3 on the PLD (except for status removal spells). He took so little damage from the at the time latest content end game <mega boss> NM that just Cure 3 with ~100 below cap Healing Magic (with capped +%Cure Potency) was overkill on healing him with afflatus solace up.

    It's still going to be very hard to design anything that can inconvenience a good PLD tank that won't cripple or outright kill a bunch of DDs who refuse to wear -DT gear. Anything that will severely hurt a decent PLD with capped -DT, Aegis, and Ochain is going to kill most DDs, even in -DT gear.

    The solution to this is, of course, Scherzo and Earthen Armor, but very few people seem to understand what a competent SMN is capable of doing, and the focus on melee zerg is so strong that most people don't even bother with anything that's not a march, madrigal, or minuet.

    While there are other jobs in the game capable of tanking, none can do that anywhere near as well as a PLD without extensive gearing, and even then they fall short. RUN is great against NMs that don't do high physical damage TP moves and only do single elemental type magical attacks, as with full -MDT and 3 Runes up, rotation Valliance and Vallation, you can keep up -72.5% MDT against a specific element. But you're still going to get your face bashed in by anything that does high damage physical moves. The patch for the concept of a medium armor tank without a shield in RUN's case is their Ergon Weapon with its -25% PDT II. However, if we're talking about a RUN with their mythic-equivalent, a PLD with Ochain and Burtgang is still going to come out ahead in the 'surviving physical attacks' department.

    A counterpart to RUN is DNC. RUN is a medium armor job that focuses on magical tanking and status ailment resistance, DNC is a medium armor job that, via Fan Dance and its ability to self cure via Curing Waltzes, can do a good job of mitigating physical damage. With -44% PDT and Fan Dance at its lowest value, you can achieve -55.2% PDT. The first hit of Fan Dance is -94.4% PDT, since Fan Dance is a separate step in the calculation and bypasses the -87.5% reduction cap. However, while Fan Dance's duration is longer than its cooldown, it is dispellable. And you're still going to be taking more damage than a PLD or RUN would from magic damage.

    PLD can self-cure, and mitigate magic and physical damage both more or less equally well.
    RUN cannot self-cure, cannot mitigate physical damage as well as a PLD, but can mitigate singe-element magic damage and status effects very well.
    DNC can self-cure, and mitigate physical damage well, especially burst damage, such as eating Eagle Eye Shot, if timed right, but cannot mitigate magical damage well.

    The problem is that, of those three jobs, RUN and DNC are more or less PLD but with half of PLD ripped out. DNC/RUN is something like 3/4ths PLD, and can tank very specific things, like Avatar Fights, just almost as well as a PLD, while also dealing far more damage.

    There just really do not seem to be a whole lot of situations where any other jobs (and I mean the player, not the pets), can tank as well as PLD. Any status effect that will cripple PLD will cripple DNC and RUN, and anything that will kill the PLD will kill DNC and RUN as well, except infrequently in very limited circumstances (Fan Dance, One For All, Elemental Sforzo), except PLD has tricks like that up its sleeve too (Invincible, Sentinel, Rampart, Palisade).

    So even if you increase HP, DEF and MDB for all jobs across the board, that means the base damage for things will just have to go higher to maintain the ability to even have a possibility of hurting the PLD, which will still annihilate most other jobs, often even in full -DT gear.

    You could just start bring BRD and/or SMN to absolutely everything (some people do that with BRD, anyway), but then you have possibly three slots (PLD, WHM, BRD/SMN) that are fixed for all content, meaning there can be even less diversity of things taken, given the way the community works.

    You could add abilities which increase RUN's ability to mitigate physical damage, except if they can do that as well as PLD without the Ergon Weapon, with it they'd outdo PLD, which is not desired. Similarly, you could increase DNC's ability to mitigate magical damage, such as making Fan Dance apply to both Physical and Magical damage (and also be undispellable), but then you're looking at a well geared DNC being able to approach -60% PDT and definitely able to get -60% MDT, which, with /RUN as your subjob, give you a minimum of -76% MDT for one specific element, which rivals RUN for single-elemental mitigation, and PLD in general (-6/8ths, whereas PLD gets -7/8ths).

    However, none of that helps any other jobs, really.

    You could lower the cooldown on Sacrosanctity, but then how much up time do they want that to have? As it is, it can be up 1/10th of the time. How much is too much? 1/4th? 1/3?

    You could make more moves stunnable and all of them more easily stunnable, but that would just mean SCH/BLM would be mandatory for everything, and we'd just revert to "NM never gets a TP move off, gg, no re".

    You could return Utsusemi to pre-nerf levels of mitigation, but there was a reason that got nerfed.

    You could make more attacks conal, and increase the volatile enmity generated by certain JAs, and make a graduated system for enmity generation of massive damage, so that high spike damage would generate significantly more enmity, which would mean THFs would actually have to TA the PLD with that 3kTP Rudra's Storm, lest the PLD not be able to get the NM off of them before it kills them, and would make spamming skillchains + magic bursts riskier for mages, but that would be a lot of work (redoing all those TP moves), and would require a lot of tweaking (and would piss off most of the community, probably, for enmity tweaking and scaling for high damage.)

    Or we could go with the theory that the problem is not, in fact, that everyone is so squishy compared to PLD, but that PLD is too survivable compared to everyone else. Capped DT, Aegis, and Ochain are almost mandatory these days, and not particularly hard to get, and, again, encounters are designed with these in mind. You could nerf PLD, but then everyone is dying, including the PLD.

    You could have a hidden buff that is applied to players when they are hit with specific TP moves or spells, wherein each successive attack within the buff's duration lowers the effectiveness or damage. If an NM spams a specific TP move constantly, it would eventually deal less damage (I think there's a doll accessory that does exactly this). Make it cap at -50%, and multiplicative with other -%DT, and even a moderately -DT geared DD (Twilight Torque, D Ring, Mollusca Mantle) would hit -40% DT for high damage TP moves after being hit with it several times in rapid succession. At that point, it would become a matter of "If we don't wipe within the first 30 to 60 seconds, the fight becomes much easier for everyone in melee range." But that would also be a lot of work, although probably less worthk than most other things.

    There is no easy solution to this that fixes all problems.

    [edit] spelling
    (0)
    Last edited by machini; 10-09-2015 at 03:46 AM.

  9. #19
    Player
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    146
    Quote Originally Posted by Faithful View Post
    I deactivated my account until this Bst nerf fiasco is fixed. I agree with what others are saying: restore the original range and have the pets damage decrease the further away you are. Maybe with Job Points the damage can be increased back some.
    Hey Let's not do that just yet. This matter of BST range is taken seriously. Camate has come forward and is addressing this issue so let's us all give him a chance to prove himself and try out October 2015 Update for BST. We don't always get a reply from Camate and usually it's always Grekumah. We all should be thankful that it's not "We Have No Plan".

    Now if we don't like this new changes to BST we can always come back and express our frustration. In mean time let's all try out the update and post some feedback. =)
    (2)

  10. #20
    Player bazookatooth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    364
    Character
    Bazookatooth
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    THF Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by machini View Post

    So even if you increase HP, DEF and MDB for all jobs across the board, that means the base damage for things will just have to go higher to maintain the ability to even have a possibility of hurting the PLD, which will still annihilate most other jobs, often even in full -DT gear.


    [edit] spelling
    They could raise HP/DEF/MDB for front line jobs on an individual basis and leave PLD, whm, smn etc as is. Not all jobs need to receive the buff.
    (0)

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