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  1. #31
    Player bazookatooth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    364
    Character
    Bazookatooth
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    THF Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by machini View Post
    When they've done stuff like this in recent memory, they've done it across the board. Instead of lowering Galka HP and raising Taru HP, and lowering Taru MP and raising Galka MP, they just raised every races' HP and MP.

    Anyway, the entire reason this is a 'problem' is because of player HP relative to BST Pet HP, right? So lower BST pet HP is the same thing as a increase to player HP in terms of relative utility. But raising player HP would most certainly be across the board, in which case, now the PLD has too much HP relative to the damage output, so the damage output has to go up, in which case now the everyone is in the same boat as they were before, except the BSTs, who now have pets which are just as killable as players, while they themselves, due to lack of DT gear for themselves, are ever worse off than previously.

    Without drastic changes, there's only so many ways they can make an NM lethal or threatening. And with how mature the game is, they have to design encounters around the idea that the a group is going to consist of people with certain gear, like A/O PLDs, and Yagrush WHMs. And they don't want current-end game content to be easy to clear, so they make it difficult. And then because it's difficult, they make the rewards better than previous content, to make an incentive to do that. And then new content comes out, which has to be harder, but which needs better gear (incentives), and it just goes on and on and on. Part of the whole reason for Spark gear was fresh players getting to 99 and disliking that they had to go through the gear progression of bayld/delve/skirmish/delve gear to get up to 119 and be useful for current content. It's part of the reason RME holders are so frequently annoyed is as the power creep goes on, the RME get comparatively worse.

    There are plenty of ways to address this problem that are good and don't particularly screw anyone over. However, part of the problem is inherent to the game and its mechanics, and part of the problem is the community itself. Only one of those can be addressed to any degree. I just spent an hour or so explaining to someone the relative merits of WHM/SCH to WHM/RDM. I've had to explain over and over why certain multihit WSes are better than "better" WSes. I've seen mythic monks get declines for content because they don't have Oatixur and that's "the best". You can only do so much with design changes. An ignorant playerbase, or a lazy one, cannot be rectified thus. You can lead a child to knowledge but you cannot make him think. And you can create meaningful choices in a game which promote diversity, but you cannot make a player base adapt. People will do the same old same old they always did, and the nail that sticks up gets hammered down, even if it's only sticking up in people's minds.

    Restore BST to pre nerf range and make the damage vary with distance to pet.
    Restore BST to pre nerf range and reduce pet HP.
    Increase certain jobs' HP to compensate (and then hear the howls of people who disagree with which jobs get what).
    Fundamentally change the way pet/master gear works so that it's possible for both to be functional at the same time.
    Change make damage for AoE TP moves and spells fall off as distance from the target increases
    Give other jobs like NIN, RUN, and DNC, more and/or more effective tanking tools
    Give healer and support jobs more and/or more effective damage mitigation tools.
    Design content specifically so that certain jobs make the content easier, via weakness which can be triggered by certain spells or abilities only accessible to that job as main job.

    Those are all things that the devs can do. They could implement them if they wanted. Some are easier than others from a mechanical stand point. As to coding, I can't say, I'm not privy to the internal mechanics of a 13 year old MMO, but from other projects I have seen of similar age, it is likely a complete nightmare in there.

    The problem is that often times these changes aren't even necessary because of an inherent limitation, they're not needed at all because the things already exist. Scherzo and Earthen Armor exist: people rarely use them. Some people don't even know they exist. An awful lot of people are completely ignorant of a lot of the game mechanics, which they cannot be blamed for in some way, since they are, by and large, completely hidden, but, at the same time, there are plenty of resources, freely available, where people can go read about Cure Power, what spells are and what they do and how they do it, MP efficiency, etc. And often there are plenty of jobs and combinations that are more than capable of completing content, but just as current follows the path of least resistance, so too does the player base. What works, works, even if something else works better, and people dislike change, and dislike having to adapt. I just spend the last couple of days working on WHM because I've given up on being able to do any relevant content on DNC.

    You cannot fix problems with the player base via mechanics changes. People are going to complain about something no matter what. I'm honestly waiting for the hammer to fall on BLU, since I'm now seeing people requiring BLU for content I've not seen people want BLU for before. Several people I know have suddenly started leveling BLU and gearing and hunting spells VERY suddenly after the BST changes, and these were people who didn't even play or have interest in BST; It's just that they have seen the writing on the wall.
    I think restoring the old pet command distance, cutting pet HP in half, cutting reward recast in half and allowing pet food to stack to 99 (it should have already really) would be a pretty good way to bring bst pets in line with normal DDs. They might need to test it a little to get it right. That would make a pet more similar to a standard DD in terms of the amount of damage it can survive and how it is healed. I also think they should add a separate ability that consumes those status removal foods instead of hooking them to reward so that nobody ever uses them. It would add a level of complexity to the job that isn't just running in circles in order to issue commands because of an arbitrary distance nerf.

    That won't change the fact that SMN, BLM and RNG can still kill things just as fast without getting near the NM though.

    It's true that they increased MP and HP across the board, but that doesn't mean they had to. I can't say for sure whether or not they know how to easily raise individual jobs HP or not, but I believe they do and they should.

    When the choice is between bringing 5 mages and a pld (or 2 bst or RNG), killing an NM incredibly fast and having a 1/6 shot at the item you want, or bringing a couple SAMs and a boatload of support to keep them alive, people are going to pick the first option every time. Even if they completely nerf BST back to the stone ages, People will (and do) just use mages or SMN or RNG and do the exact same thing. They will leave the front line jobs behind. All they are doing is changing seats on the titanic. If they want SAM, THF, MNK, DRK, WAR, etc. to be relevant again, they have to either nerf everything that is not those jobs, or boost those jobs to the point that they can do the content without having to bring more people or jump through more hoops than the other set ups. There's no two ways about it.
    (2)
    Last edited by bazookatooth; 10-10-2015 at 03:13 PM.

  2. #32
    Player Vargos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    3
    Character
    Vargos
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Even if they completely nerf BST back to the stone ages, People will (and do) just use mages or SMN or RNG and do the exact same thing
    Agreed. It's all I've been seeing. As I type this I'm watching a pld and small group of mages with a geo take down T3 Escha - Ru'Aun NM's as if they were EP.

    If they want SAM, THF, MNK, DRK, WAR, etc. to be relevant again, they have to either nerf everything that is not those jobs, or boost those jobs to the point that they can do the content
    Agreed again. I don't even like beast as it is. If I had my way I'd still have +charm and +chr sets while using native pets. It was a lot more fun before jugs ruled, and required some skill. That said I am only back on beast for this reason quoted. I'm not fond of mage jobs and my DD jobs are ineffective for current content.
    (1)

  3. #33
    Player dasva's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,542
    Character
    Dasva
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    SAM Lv 99
    Well part of it is the players... while our tanks ability to outsurvive DDs is a lot better theses days and there are more annoying AoEs using slower "safe" methods of fighting has always been an option and usually the first option when doing stuff. Then once we get to know the content better use more melees backed up with the proper buffs/debuffs to keep them alive to kill things faster. Part of the problem now is a large part of the population of the game doesn't want to or can't go thru the extra effort of getting the proper support to make it good or in some cases even feasible. On top of that the requirements have sort have gone up with a lot of the harder content wanting geos now on top of the old normal support. I mean can you kill faster with a good set up? Sure but how long are you going to take setting it up and then having it fall apart when specific job leaves while say a manaburn just find another nuker or tank or whatever. With pets just find another smn or pup maybe bst. There are still a couple of key positions in those that might take time to find like cor or geo or sch but it's not as bad
    (1)

  4. #34
    Player Gwydion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    1,207
    Character
    Galkashield
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    THF Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Camate View Post
    We’ve been receiving a lot of feedback about this.

    Since there are monsters with varying sizes, if we make adjustments so that the somewhat larger monsters are the benchmark, then the distance in which commands can be used will be no different than before. While we can’t make any promises at the time, we will be looking into changing the target of pet commands, shifting them from the master to the pet. We believe that the way it feels to play will become very different, so we would like to hear everyone’s feedback once it is implemented.
    *There is a possibility that commands cannot be accepted when pets are out of your field of vision.
    Camate,
    Please put BST back the way it was. I also wanted to confirm that I have experienced the issue you posted in red: Commands are randomly not accepted if I am less than 7 yalms, but my pet is not on my screen. This is the most frustrating video game experience in my 25 years of gaming. Lastly, I don't think anyone wants the target of BST commands to shift from master to pet. It was never broken and is changing 13 years of play-style.
    (11)
    Last edited by Gwydion; 10-11-2015 at 06:09 PM.

  5. #35
    Community Rep Grekumah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    349
    I’d like to give a slightly deeper explanation as to how we will be adjusting beastmaster in the next version update.

    As mentioned previously, we will be changing the target of pet commands, and shifting the focus of the target to your pet. Up until now pet commands were focalized on yourself, and it’s been difficult to grasp the effective range. However, with this adjustment there will be a subtarget display over your pet, and you’ll be able to better judge the range by looking at its color.

    Many have been concerned about commands not being executed when pets are not in your field of vision; however, when using macros with the “me” pronoun, pet commands will be executed as you have been used to up until now. Using macros with this pronoun will not bring up a subtarget, so in the event you want this to happen, you can utilize “stnpc.”

    We realize there are many that have become very used to the way the current system works, and we’ve made adjustments to keep this option intact while adding another. We hope that you utilize the option that works best for your playstyle.
    (6)
    Colby "Grekumah" Casaccia - Community Team

  6. #36
    Player Olor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,134
    Please just put it back the way it was - if you want to nerf BST please just nerf our damage. I miss enjoying XI.
    (19)
    http://photobucket.com/gallery/http://s19.photobucket.com/user/soulchld4/media/Olorinus-Signature.jpg.html

  7. #37
    Player larrymc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    157
    Character
    Larrymc
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Grekumah View Post
    I’d like to give a slightly deeper explanation as to how we will be adjusting beastmaster in the next version update.

    As mentioned previously, we will be changing the target of pet commands, and shifting the focus of the target to your pet. Up until now pet commands were focalized on yourself, and it’s been difficult to grasp the effective range. However, with this adjustment there will be a subtarget display over your pet, and you’ll be able to better judge the range by looking at its color.

    Many have been concerned about commands not being executed when pets are not in your field of vision; however, when using macros with the “me” pronoun, pet commands will be executed as you have been used to up until now. Using macros with this pronoun will not bring up a subtarget, so in the event you want this to happen, you can utilize “stnpc.”

    We realize there are many that have become very used to the way the current system works, and we’ve made adjustments to keep this option intact while adding another. We hope that you utilize the option that works best for your playstyle.
    I wish you would actually provide a clear & deep explanation of the change - this is not clear at all how it will impact gameplay for bst.
    (10)

  8. #38
    Player Malthar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    674
    Character
    Malthar
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    What he's saying is they're going to leave the range as is and change the target from <me> to <pet> (using <stnpc>) so you can see exactly how horrible the range is.

    Grekumah, I don't think the devs get it. We would rather have pets nerfed back to pre-buffed era rather than have this distance nerf. It's absolutely horrible any which way you spin it.
    (13)
    Last edited by Malthar; 10-16-2015 at 03:21 AM. Reason: Clarification

  9. #39
    Player Faithful's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    23
    Character
    Faithful
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    This is a horribly solution. Just put Bst back the way it was a few years ago. I don't even care about the damage boosting it's received. Put the range on pet commands back the way they were. Doesn't anyone involved with this game realize what a mean spirited move it was to fundamentally change a job like Bst after all these years right at the end of the games life. I've been paying my fee's for around 12 years and right at the end you ruin my reason to play. This just doesn't make any sense.
    (10)

  10. #40
    Player Voidstorm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    353
    Character
    Voidstorm
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    SCH Lv 99
    So, just make it so Pet needs 1000 TP to use an ability. Solved? sounds good here.
    (0)

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