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  1. #11
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    Do you even play Summoner? Seems like you don't know too much about the job or the current usage. Not saying I disagree with you on many things, but you seem to not understand some things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeargi View Post
    • Zantetsuken also fails so much when it comes to killing things, even when it's just 1 target.
    Zantetsuken ACC is based on MP/MaxMP and number of targets. The formula is (MP/MaxMP)/NumOfTargets
    so if you have 100% MP it will kill 1 target 100% of the time or two targets with 50% chance each. That means it *could* miss both targets but the chance of that happening is lower. If you're aiming it at 20 monsters then even at 100% MP that's only a 5% chance to kill each monster.


    Zantetsuken... This Astral Flow Ability and ALL Astral Flow Abilities need to be jacked to the extreme... It's a level 75 Ability and can't even kill most things outside of Adoulin. The Frontal Cone needs to be widened or changed to a True AoE. Also, at 100+ this ability should do more that 9999. If a non-Astral Flow move can, so should this.

    Yes it should do significantly more than 9999 damage, but read above for the rest.

    Astral Flow Effect: I'm not sure how this exactly work, but I don't know if a +75 (Max JP) to their stats really helps in the long run. Most times you use Astral Flow, it's for Perfect Defense which is MP based, and ends the effect anyway. Maybe a 'Blood Boon' type thing might be better, where not all you MP is consumed from using Astral Flow? Maybe extend the timer for Astral so you can maybe get another one or 2 in.
    DEAR GOD PLEASE DON'T TOUCH THIS UNLESS YOU'RE MAKING IT STRONGER! +75 to all stats, soon to be +100 to all stats is EXTREMELY POTENT. You notice it instantly. If you're not noticing the boost in damage, you may want to look at getting better gear.

    Who the hell uses Perfect Defense anymore, and for what? I haven't used it since SoA came out.


    I'm having an extremely hard time landing some of the magic abilities anyway in higher level stuff. So I need to start a +MACC gear set at some point.
    I say this in the nicest way possible, it seems like you need better gear in general and you need to read up on how abilities work before you assume they suck.
    You absolutely do need a M.ACC set. You should aim to at least have ACC (I do Helios ACC/DA/Haste), Magical BP set, Physical BP set, Hybrid set (for Flaming Crush and Burning Strike), M.ACC set, and Summoning skill set.
    Fast cast, Elemental Siphon, Pet: PDT, Nuking set (for when /SCH on relevant content.)

    I'm sure I've missed something, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.
    (2)

  2. #12
    Player Secondplanet's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    San D'Oria
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    398
    Character
    Mortificator
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Grekumah View Post
    While we can’t promise that we’ll improve summoner blood pacts, we’ll consider looking into this in the future.
    Thanks for answering our call >^.^<
    We're not asking to make them on par with any job but at their current state a great deal of our wards are stuck in the glory days of 75 when content is now 119-130.
    Cheers
    (1)

  3. #13
    Player Catmato's Avatar
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    Genoxd, typing your replies inside the quote makes it really difficult to follow what you're saying.
    (0)
    Last edited by Catmato; 11-08-2015 at 01:42 AM.

  4. #14
    Player Zeargi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genoxd View Post
    Zantetsuken ACC is based on MP/MaxMP and number of targets. The formula is (MP/MaxMP)/NumOfTargets
    so if you have 100% MP it will kill 1 target 100% of the time or two targets with 50% chance each. That means it *could* miss both targets but the chance of that happening is lower. If you're aiming it at 20 monsters then even at 100% MP that's only a 5% chance to kill each monster.
    There are things that resist Death, and in general the Astral Flows are extremely underwhelming. And again, Regardless of Targets, for something that should be a dire straights technique, if the targets aren't in front, then it misses them entirely. These are abilities that can be used once every hour, and over all their effectiveness vs. MP Cost is horrible!

    Quote Originally Posted by Genoxd View Post
    DEAR GOD PLEASE DON'T TOUCH THIS UNLESS YOU'RE MAKING IT STRONGER! +75 to all stats, soon to be +100 to all stats is EXTREMELY POTENT. You notice it instantly. If you're not noticing the boost in damage, you may want to look at getting better gear.
    No, the reason I don't notice it, is because I don't put JPs into it. You're not the first person to say something about not changing, so that's fine, I had also asked for clarification as well. But it's completely sad, that our 1hr ability as been reduced to simply put our avatars on roids and not even use the ability that it unlocks.



    Quote Originally Posted by Genoxd View Post
    Who the hell uses Perfect Defense anymore, and for what? I haven't used it since SoA came out.
    It still has its uses. 95% Damage Reduction, Status Resist+, the only thing it need to add to the list is Death and Doom, Seeing how it is a Light Based BP. So that then falls to what you just said about changing the JP Category, 'Just because you don't use it, doesn't mean that others don't.'


    Quote Originally Posted by Genoxd View Post
    I say this in the nicest way possible, it seems like you need better gear in general and you need to read up on how abilities work before you assume they suck.
    You absolutely do need a M.ACC set. You should aim to at least have ACC (I do Helios ACC/DA/Haste), Magical BP set, Physical BP set, Hybrid set (for Flaming Crush and Burning Strike), M.ACC set, and Summoning skill set.
    Fast cast, Elemental Siphon, Pet: PDT, Nuking set (for when /SCH on relevant content.)
    While I don't have the 'OMG I'm so SUPER ELITE' gear, I'm not running around in Sparks and have some crappy ilvl 109 sachet. And I know I need a MACC set, it's something I said previously that I needed to work on. Plus, it seems to me that more people agree with me on the fact that the most of the BPs need to be updated (Including some of the Reps). So rather than trying to belittle me under the gross misconception that I don't know the job, perhaps offer up more info and better ideas.
    (2)
    Last edited by Zeargi; 11-08-2015 at 05:21 AM.
    "What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets. But enough talk... Have at you!" Lord Dracula - [Castlevania:SotN]

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeargi View Post
    There are things that resist Death, and in general the Astral Flows are extremely underwhelming. And again, Regardless of Targets, for something that should be a dire straights technique, if the targets aren't in front, then it misses them entirely. These are abilities that can be used once every hour, and over all their effectiveness vs. MP Cost is horrible!
    If it resists death then Odin will do damage instead. Naturally no monster or player has any resistance to death. NMs are immune to it and players can equip armor that gives them the trait. If you have 100% MP Odin will kill any single non-NM mob 100% of the time without fail. Yes the fact that it's a cone attack is annoying, but it gives you the ability to aim it at a certain number of monsters so you can make the choice of do I want to kill this single monster with 100% chance or do I want to risk trying to kill 5 monsters but have it completely miss all of them.

    While the damage part is very sad and needs updating, I do understand why the death aspect of it remains untouched. I used Odin every Incursion run to kill the 2 mega-adds that come with the mega-boss. You end up killing both mobs 25% of the time, killing one 50% of the time and missing completely 25% of the time (which actually never happened to me.) If your party takes the time to line them up with the NM then you also do 9999 to the boss as a bonus.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeargi View Post
    No, the reason I don't notice it, is because I don't put JPs into it. You're not the first person to say something about not changing, so that's fine, I had also asked for clarification as well. But it's completely sad, that our 1hr ability as been reduced to simply put our avatars on roids and not even use the ability that it unlocks.
    I actually do use the 1hr abilities if I need AoE. While I agree they suck on single target damage, and I would love to see a damage boost regardless, they are unique because their damage equation does not factor in number of targets. Magic spells usually do reduced damage the more targets you hit, but the SMN 1hr BPs will do the same damage to all targets (pending resists per target) which is actually quite powerful.

    Also the fact that you haven't put anything into a whole category tells me you're probably missing a lot of job points which means you're missing a lot of MAB/M.ACC/ATT/ACC, which is then compounded by what seems to be a lack of gear for current content. So I suggest you consider this when wondering why things like Dispel from Pavor Nocturnus miss all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeargi View Post
    It still has its uses. 95% Damage Reduction, Status Resist+, the only thing it need to add to the list is Death and Doom, Seeing how it is a Light Based BP. So that then falls to what you just said about changing the JP Category, 'Just because you don't use it, doesn't mean that others don't.'
    I know what it does, thanks. I asked for an example. What content do you actually use it on still? Now that job points exist the damage boost from Astral Flow far out weighs anything I could think of using PD on. It's not even worth it for things it use to have a use on anymore, like ADL: Astral Flow + Astral Conduit + Flaming Crush x3 = dead.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeargi View Post
    While I don't have the 'OMG I'm so SUPER ELITE' gear, I'm not running around in Sparks and have some crappy ilvl 109 sachet. And I know I need a MACC set, it's something I said previously that I needed to work on. Plus, it seems to me that more people agree with me on the fact that the most of the BPs need to be updated (Including some of the Reps). So rather than trying to belittle me under the gross misconception that I don't know the job, perhaps offer up more info and better ideas.
    You ignored the opening of my post before the quote section where I said
    "Do you even play Summoner? Seems like you don't know too much about the job or the current usage. Not saying I disagree with you on many things, but you seem to not understand some things."
    Notice how I said I'm NOT disagreeing with you on many things. Lots of the BP changes are valid, some (like the ones I listed) are probably considered too powerful if changed.

    Honestly you should complain about the fact that we have no good Light avatars. Carbuncle is extremely weak and Searing Light is practically worthless. The only real use I've had for Carbuncle is one single monster in delve. All of Carbuncles stats are pathetically low which serves no purpose anymore, trusts already make the game easy-mode for low levels so no reason to not make him more powerful. The same can be said for Cait, though his utility is significantly higher so he can get away with being a crap avatar.

    I have played SMN since before NA release and I can tell you it's in the best state it has ever been in. The utility and damage we bring to a party has actually finally been noticed. It's not just a 1 trick pony like when everyone wanted us for PD zergs or Nether Blast. All SMN really needs to solidify its position in content is BP recast III either through Gifts or gear.

    While the BP Ward changes you want are nice, and imo needed, they actually won't do too much for getting SMN slots in a PT. It's unlikely someone will bring SMN to a PT because their stoneskin now caps at 350.
    How often does SCH give the PT stoneskin, once at the start?
    Phalanx boost is nice, but PLD and RUN have Phalanx now, and again how often does a SCH give the PT Phalanx, once at the start?
    Diamond storm doesn't stack with RDM which is honestly a bigger issue than the potency.
    Lunar Cry, when useful, is more potent than Diamond Storm which is nice but also does not stack.
    I don't care if they keep the time of day thing for Dream Shroud but it really needs a boost because MAB+10 at cap is a joke at 119 when you can get 50-60+ on a single piece of armor.
    The same can be said of Ecliptic Growl, +1~7 to stats is a joke. At 119 Ecliptic Growl should be giving around +1~45.
    (0)

  6. #16
    Player Zeargi's Avatar
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    While you are correct in some aspects of things, like my lack of JPs and my missing the Nirvana, but your demeanor in this matter is my major gripe. You've done nothing but talk down to me, and I'll clue you in... You're not the only person that's played SMN since the NA release, it's not some grand thing that you get to hang on you mantle as being superior to the rest of the SMN community. Yes, SMN is in a great place, much better than all the problems it had before, but it still can be something greater, which is why I post here the most. I love this Job, and it's always been my favorite, and its multiple incarnations across the series as a whole. THAT is why I ignored your first statement. Yes, The Light Avatars suck, and I've got no clue how best to fix them, that why I didn't put anything here. The reason why my SMN isn't as good as it could be is, because I don't focus on it solely. I try my best to gear myself across lots of jobs to help the few people in my LS. Yes, I'm behind on content, but take the time I can to help out others. I'd be more than happy to post the gear I do have and the JPs, and much more willing to figure out where to go from there. Again, offer up better idea, info, and other things that can be supportive instead of trying your best to inflate your Ego higher.
    (1)
    "What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets. But enough talk... Have at you!" Lord Dracula - [Castlevania:SotN]

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeargi View Post
    While you are correct in some aspects of things, like my lack of JPs and my missing the Nirvana, but your demeanor in this matter is my major gripe. You've done nothing but talk down to me, and I'll clue you in... You're not the only person that's played SMN since the NA release, it's not some grand thing that you get to hang on you mantle as being superior to the rest of the SMN community. Yes, SMN is in a great place, much better than all the problems it had before, but it still can be something greater, which is why I post here the most. I love this Job, and it's always been my favorite, and its multiple incarnations across the series as a whole. THAT is why I ignored your first statement. Yes, The Light Avatars suck, and I've got no clue how best to fix them, that why I didn't put anything here. The reason why my SMN isn't as good as it could be is, because I don't focus on it solely. I try my best to gear myself across lots of jobs to help the few people in my LS. Yes, I'm behind on content, but take the time I can to help out others. I'd be more than happy to post the gear I do have and the JPs, and much more willing to figure out where to go from there. Again, offer up better idea, info, and other things that can be supportive instead of trying your best to inflate your Ego higher.
    I'm not the one that created a thread on how to fix SMN without understanding many aspects of the job
    (0)

  8. #18
    Player AtrixWolfe's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Character
    Verda
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 99
    Guys you both have valid points and Genoxd you are obviously a more experienced summoner than most, but can we take the hostility and finger pointing down a notch, pretty please? Makes us all look bad when this happens. There are ways to express your opinions and insights without upsetting people Genoxd, you'll probably find people listen better if you do too.

    I hope that our utility pacts are updated to reflect ilvl and skill most of all, and second most of all I hope our Astral Flow pacts are taken a look at. Avatar's Favor puts SMN in a supportive role, and many of our support pacts are very out dated. Our phalanx from noctoshield for example cannot begin to hold a candle to any job with enhancing skill and sub rdm, on top of that I believe phalanx can be boosted with gear from alluvion skirmish and other areas and noctoshield cannot. Same story for stone skin on gear. I liked when SMN buffs were party wide, strong versions of spells that can't be cast very often. Blink that lasts 15 min, absorbs up to 6 times. That's still very useful. The same can't be said for stoneskin or noctoshield or many others. And indeed things like Diamond Storm just don't seem potent enough compared to other support options.

    As for astral flow pacts... I know comparing one aspect of a job to another isn't really a good way to argue balance ever because you need to take the entirejob into account, however a BLU with the latest hybrid elemental spells can do more damage than those can in about 2 seconds and then cast another one. It doesn't require 1 hours. BST can use the grasshopper and do a ton of AoE dmg every 10 seconds. Thunderspark isn't a 1 hour and seems to do comparable damage to our AF pacts, but without the 1 hour requirement. Level ? Holy is unreliable but can average higher damage than either of those in the right conditions. So it just seems they are very underwhelming for all their requirements and while they were excellent for Astral Burn parties, those were usually low level (level 35 or even 15) and with how easy it is to get experience now they aren't even relevant.

    SMN is in a better place than before I totally agree. But you wouldn't believe how hard it is to get a group of people to support summoner as a damage source. You need extremely specific setups to make it work, and if there's a blm in the party since most magic burst setups use a SCH as well, the buffs will not be most pointed toward smn. The COR if there will roll for the BLM and SCH rather than just the SMN. Finding good RUN who want to tank is also hard.

    Both LS I am in knows how great a well supported SMN setup can do, but they balk at only one main damage source. RUN, COR, GEO, WHM, SCH, SMN... if you remove any of that your performance can be really terrible (and for Flaming Crush replace SCH with a 2nd GEO) vs high level content. Most would rather just go PLD (which there's way more of), GEO, BLM, BLM, SCH, and either COR or another GEO for that same kind of setup.. SMN setup can be a relevant endgame strategy. But it takes such specific jobs compared to all the other strategies out there, and the opinion by the population at large of how well a SMN can do and benefit a group is still so low (and perhaps somewhat justified when SMN setup requirements aren't met), that getting by as a SMN requires some pretty special friends most the time. It is totally fine for SMN to relegate to a supoport and far less damage role (even just COR supporting SMN can make a 17k Heavenly strike go to 23k, multiply that difference by 3 if you are magic bursting but this is vs very weak mobs, against harder you need GEO) when those damage setup requirements can't be made, but a lot of our would be support options simply have not scaled into lategame at all, unlike similar spells for their job equivalents have.

    Mostly, because avatar stats are lacking, and there's no way to boost them with buffs and gear to the degree that player characters can for themselves... GEO debuffs, and COR buffs/debuffs, and RUN debuffs are the only option open to summoners on hard content, and without GEO as a job around as potent as it is... most of those strategies are extremely cut off and I worry about SMN balance being so tied to another job and access to them for endgame scenarios, though I realize GEO itself is in *every* end game strategy setup which is worrisome in itself... but no less ubiquitous than bard used to be I suppose (Which with so much mana options, and Threnody II potency not as strong as other options BRD has really fallen out of favor with a lot of setups).
    (2)

  9. #19
    Player Zeargi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genoxd View Post
    I'm not the one that created a thread on how to fix SMN without understanding many aspects of the job
    Quote Originally Posted by Genoxd View Post
    Not saying I disagree with you on many things, but you seem to not understand some things.
    I'll Just leave that here

    If you feel that my thoughts and notions are completely wrong, then do better. Let's see your ideas. Everything I posted, also had a reason and a suggestion to go with. Also I never said I miss with Pavor Nocturnus' Dispel, I said that If the target has nothing to dispel, then is simply does nothing. Pavor has a low success rate of inflicting Death, even with Nightmare, but I also post this before the change to Apogee. You want to know when I would Perfect Defense, I would use it whenever I felt the need. You may play SMN as a DD solely, but I play more on the err of caution. You can play the job in multiple ways and NONE of them are wrong.

    So tell me, how would you fix SMN so that is gets invited on a regular bases? Start being helpful instead of detrimental. If you have the means to help and the knowledge to do so, then do it.
    (0)
    Last edited by Zeargi; 11-10-2015 at 07:00 AM.
    "What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets. But enough talk... Have at you!" Lord Dracula - [Castlevania:SotN]

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeargi View Post
    So tell me, how would you fix SMN so that is gets invited on a regular bases? Start being helpful instead of detrimental. If you have the means to help and the knowledge to do so, then do it.
    Just so you know, I actually read your whole post before I responded. Did you read mine? Are you ignoring where I agreed with you because you're angry at me?

    Here in case you didn't read my post all the way through here's a section where I tell you one thing that I think needs to happen for SMN

    Quote Originally Posted by Genoxd View Post
    it's in the best state it has ever been in. The utility and damage we bring to a party has actually finally been noticed. It's not just a 1 trick pony like when everyone wanted us for PD zergs or Nether Blast. All SMN really needs to solidify its position in content is BP recast III either through Gifts or gear.
    As for perfect defense, I'm asking for where you felt the need to use it? I still can't think of any content since SoA came out where I'd need to use perfect defense. Ever since job points, I can't even think of any content where I'd even want to use it for anything else.

    Outside of ADL and other zergs I always considered perfect defense to be just as worthless as Odin. They are both barely used and I'd rather they were both fully redesigned as something other than 1hr abilities. Personally I think it did more harm than good back then. To most people it turned the question of should we let the SMN come into do we need perfect defense? No? OK, don't invite the summoner.
    (0)

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