Dev question regarding August 5th Job Point Gift List - 1200 point gift

[Helias]

Just got my first Espiritus today and it hasn't effected my BP timer either? Perhaps 30 seconds is the wall for -BPdelay II. Either way this doesn't seem to be just an issue with the job gift.

[bazookatooth]

The response to the -5 ready shield leads me to believe that SE doesn't want bst to have a 10 second ready timer. They just didn't think they needed to cap it because they didn't think anyone would use charmer's merlin still, and underestimated its value. Once they saw how powerful 10 second timers were, it was too late and it was such a crucial part of popular strategies now that capping it would cause a riot. So instead they are trying to get bst to give up the 10 second timer by other means. And like how they don't want ready timers under 15 second, half of the original timer, they don't want bloodpacts under 30, half of the original timer.

I think the reason they won't give the shield is because some clever people would use it to get ready recast down to 5 seconds.

[Ponto]

I think SE doesn't realise how much difference is there between SMN and BST who can use their ability in 10 sec without MP cost. Anyway hope SE improve this useless gift and amend that cap bug wich occurred in the previous update.

[Ulth]

I think the reason they won't give the shield is because some clever people would use it to get ready recast down to 5 seconds.

In case anyone didn't know the people at Blue Gartr do a great job of translating dev responses to the JP forums into english. This was said about a month ago:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112...=1#post6468108

So yeah, charmer's merlin not being 119 makes it pretty useless as an actual weapon. SE seemed to think that it was enough of a drawback that people wouldn't use it, but people still do, so now they are looking into other ways to force the master into engaging. Other ways that won't be effective, but that is a topic for a different thread.

I think SE doesn't realise how much difference is there between SMN and BST who can use their ability in 10 sec without MP cost. Anyway hope SE improve this useless gift and amend that cap bug wich occurred in the previous update.

Yeah, actually I think they know. That's why they are talking about removing the command range for bloodpacts and limiting the range of commands for ready. Which again, lowering the range of ready won't fix the underlying problem for bst. I still say the bug is not a bug, but a feature. And if they do change the gift it will probably just switch to Avatar: +40 TP bonus like bst got.

[bazookatooth]

In case anyone didn't know the people at Blue Gartr do a great job of translating dev responses to the JP forums into english. This was said about a month ago:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112...=1#post6468108

So yeah, charmer's merlin not being 119 makes it pretty useless as an actual weapon. SE seemed to think that it was enough of a drawback that people wouldn't use it, but people still do, so now they are looking into other ways to force the master into engaging. Other ways that won't be effective, but that is a topic for a different thread.

I read that as part about charmer's merlin as "It's fine how it is".

Not "Oh, we were hoping you wouldn't use that". But who knows. Maybe lost in translation.

[AtrixWolfe]

Just got my first Espiritus today and it hasn't effected my BP timer either? Perhaps 30 seconds is the wall for -BPdelay II. Either way this doesn't seem to be just an issue with the job gift.

Right, we've known for quite some time bp delay II caps at 30 seconds. Many hoped when we saw the 1200 point gift that it would lower bp recast delay further, because we wouldn't get 1200 job points for a gift that doesn't give us anything we don't already have right? ... Wording is often tricky with the game like how Geomancy + and Geomancer Skill + can mean VASTLY different things, so SE is usually very careful in labeling things consistently, the wording on the gifts makes one think it would not be the same category as BP delay 1 or BP delay II, but its own thing. Testing showed the 100 Gift behaved this way but, with the new bp delay II gear out as well as this 1200 gift, it really does make no change for SMN as a job at all.

@Ulth I didn't reply before b/c I didn't want the thread to devolve into arguing about other jobs but there's been time to calm down and it's becoming that anyway so I will touch on it:
MNK and DNC can claim to possibly have it worse, as in haste capped situations their 1200 gift actually hurts their TP gain. (Though this could be fixed if SE made a bug fix that lowering delay below delay cap won't effect tp gains since it won't effect the speed at which you swing either). THF I play THF a lot and never seen TH 13 yet, wondering if I'll ever see TH 14. However, no testing has been done on if it is different from other TH levels like TH 1 and 2 and 3 all behave a bit differently so impossible to say on that. A lot of jobs got great things for 1200 gifts, RDM got an 11 tic refresh, SCH got Helix II, PUP got more slots, that is why when someone mentioned earlier though other jobs I stated it's not a valid argument, because it is relative privation (also known as the not as bad as argument) meaning that it changes the topic and compares it to worse trying to persuade you by stating there are worse problems and that thus your argument has no weight. Parents often use it for example when you don't finish your food, stating there are starving kids in other countries so you should finish your food is actually a logical fallacy, just as stating SMN 1200 gift is fine because others have it worse is also a logical fallacy, to make it more obvious so would stating that 1200 gift is fine because there are bigger problems in the world like human trafficking. While it is true a few other jobs have worse 1200 gifts, and while it is true there are bigger problems in the world like human trafficking, neither is a valid argument against should SMN have a 1200 gift that impacts the job because they aren't related to the argument at all and the only reason it becomes a logical fallacy and persuades some ppl is because in the case of your dinner, there is a common thread of food and hunger and in the case of this there is a common thread of game balance and job changes. Logical fallacies are such because they are common mistakes in human thinking. That is why discussion of BST or MNK or THF here isn't fully relevant and more than a bit off topic, there isn't a reason any job should have a 1200 gift that doesn't help the job. Perhaps there is a big gift down the line that will make up for it and SE can't reveal that at this time, or maybe we'll get Siren as a summon, or who knows, but relative privation is a logical fallacy and if you wanna read more about it you can here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallac...tive_privation

[Ulth]

It's actually not a fallacy of relative privation. I was not dismissing your statement because there are other jobs that got worst gifts. Your statement was dismissed because the gift actually does do something, unlike the examples I gave, but you said it does nothing which was a false statement. The gift lowers the amount of bloodpact delay gear needed so it frees up inventory for other pieces of gear, which in a game where you need a set for everything is actually not that bad. I was actually tickled pink when I 109'd my empy feet and could put my chaac belt in storage.

By the way thanks for stawmanning my point into a fallacy fallacy. I like how you you do it right after appealing to emotions.

Please upvote the topic guys, it won't guarantee replies from the mods but it definitely helps. I have to admit this is really heartbreaking if smn gets 1200 JP and it basically does nothing for the job.

I wait on bated breath for the next one you accuse me of. Maybe it will anecdotal for talking about my chaac belt. Possibly ad hominem, or tu quoque for pointing out your fallacies? I know, you could skip the whole fallacy defense and report me for being off topic so I get banned! It wouldn't be the first time, so maybe you will get lucky and I will get permanently banned.

[bazookatooth]

I think a reasonable argument would have been "Hey look guys, they're gonna add a million more JP categories / Gifts, so this really isn't a terrible grand prize. It's just a stepping stone on a long journey to something (hopefully) better. SO don't act like it's the end of the world". All that other nonsense about how other jobs have it worse (why would they care?...), or how it allows you to use a different piece of gear (Which does nothing for you in precast anyways) is not really relevant to the conversation. Maybe you care about it, but people grinding 1200 JP on summoner don't. People want a reward at the end of the grind and this is not a good reward.

[Ulth]

I think a reasonable argument would have been "Hey look guys, they're gonna add a million more JP categories / Gifts, so this really isn't a terrible grand prize. It's just a stepping stone on a long journey to something (hopefully) better. SO don't act like it's the end of the world". All that other nonsense about how other jobs have it worse (why would they care?...), or how it allows you to use a different piece of gear (Which does nothing for you in precast anyways) is not really relevant to the conversation. Maybe you care about it, but people grinding 1200 JP on summoner don't. People want a reward at the end of the grind and this is not a good reward.

Or I could you know, point out how ridiculously over powered the gift they are asking for is. What they are asking for is the gifts to not count to the caps of 15 for bloodpact reduction I&II. If that were the case then bloodpact could be reduced 30 from gear, then an additional 10 from the gifts for a blood pact recast time of 20. Sure as of right now there is only enough gear for -14 bloodpact II, but 21 second bloodpacts is still a 42% increase in frequency of bloodpacts from the last update.

I'm sure some people might see smn being able to eventually get down to 20 second bloodpacts is putting them on par with bst's 10 second readys, but don't forget SE is in the process of finding ways to nerf bst.

As for it being worth the grind, have you seen smn's job point categories? Those are worth the grind on their own.

[bazookatooth]

Or I could you know, point out how ridiculously over powered the gift they are asking for is. What they are asking for is the gifts to not count to the caps of 15 for bloodpact reduction I&II. If that were the case then bloodpact could be reduced 30 from gear, then an additional 10 from the gifts for a blood pact recast time of 20. Sure as of right now there is only enough gear for -14 bloodpact II, but 21 second bloodpacts is still a 42% increase in frequency of bloodpacts from the last update.

I'm sure some people might see smn being able to eventually get down to 20 second bloodpacts is putting them on par with bst's 10 second readys, but don't forget SE is in the process of finding ways to nerf bst.

As for it being worth the grind, have you seen smn's job point categories? Those are worth the grind on their own.

There you go again blabbing about how this and that is overpowered. Get over it. People are leveling up. Grinding JP is the new leveling system. Stop expecting everything to stay the same. It isn't gonna happen. They're probably gonna add another 5 ~ 15 points to every JP category and a million gifts to go with it. 42% is nothing in the grand scheme of things. The sky isn't falling and all your irrelevant comparisons to other jobs don't matter. Stop trolling the forums asking for nerfs on stuff just because you don't play it.