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Thread: Nukes!!!

  1. #21
    Player Zeldar's Avatar
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    Zeldar
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    Sylph
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    BLU Lv 99
    OK, so you have made valid arguments for higher tier banishes, and I can get behind that. Native dual wield though? You can't possible be serious. This was only given to actual melee jobs with high dagger or sword as their main weapon to give them more subjob options than nin. For whm, its simply for screwing around. So if you want to just screw around, hey its a game have at it.....but sub nin or dnc.

    As for calling an added effect of a ws an actual enfeeble.... lame example. As for calling drain a cure, which you cant use on party members, lame example. Formless strikes I'm not going to argue really.....its pretty high non-physical damage and like you said, its limited.
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  2. #22
    Player Jerbob's Avatar
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    Character
    Jeral
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    Phoenix
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    WHM Lv 99
    Why are they lame examples? I think they perfectly illustrate the point - that jobs can have abilities outside of their traditional role, but they tend to be different or more limited. Full Break is actually good when it lands, but it's far less convenient than "proper" enfeebles. Drain is great when you need it, but far more limited than "proper" cures. High tier Banish would be fun to magic burst with, but no match for "proper" nukes. Dual wielding clubs can be an enjoyable way to play WHM, but with the same effort put in it's unlikely to match "proper" melee damage.
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  3. #23
    Player Zeldar's Avatar
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    Zeldar
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    Sylph
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    So you would say that by having the abilty to maybe land 1 enfeeble, that job has "enfeebling capabilities"? Well, in that case my thf is a freaking BEAST, because i can aspir with a ws, and do magic damage with others! That means I'm like a blm now too, right? Oh, and my WAR has healing capabilities if I strap on a sword and use sanguine blade! Having 1 enfeeble is far more than simply "limited" . Its an afterthought.
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  4. #24
    Player Selindrile's Avatar
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    Selindrile
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    Asura
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    I wish every job had dual wield 0 starting at level 1, no attack speed bonus, heck, could make it an attack speed penalty of 10% or whatever, mostly I just want it to have more offhand stat options on mages, because mage shields are pretty crappy in comparison to having an offhand weapon, statwise.
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    Last edited by Selindrile; 07-29-2016 at 12:27 PM.

  5. #25
    Player Raiyara's Avatar
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    Character
    Raiya
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    Asura
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    DNC Lv 99
    Dual wield wouldnt really fit a WHM main since its trait mainly for ninja and thf/dnc really.

    Banish tho is something that WHM should have up to max tier as its the only real offensive spell whm has. As said before the last spell in that line WHM gets is at lvl65 yet mobs and npcs not only have the -aga 3 version but high tier use banish 4. Why WHM never got these like blm got tier 5 nukes is a mystery so far.

    Its no harm for Whm to have max level spells anyhow and its one of those missing leftovers from the level cap raise.

    Also Blm should have tier iv aga elemental spells as well.
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  6. #26
    Player Selindrile's Avatar
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    Selindrile
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiyara View Post
    Dual wield wouldnt really fit a WHM main since its trait mainly for ninja and thf/dnc really.
    At this moment in time, sure, but historically this was not the case, the most common dual wielder in the first years of the game was War, and soloist-Rdm (both subbing Nin), Nin did but it wasn't used as frequently, though after some time, Nin did become more widely used and was the Pre-eminent dual wielder.

    Thf only got dual wield natively somewhat recently, though they often subbed Nin for it, often they didn't. You also forgot to mention Blu, they were in a similar boat to Thf for a long time, frequently subbing Nin, but not always. Also Whm/Nin was not too uncommon, old bones parties and Whms soloing things pretty frequently comes to mind, but they didn't do it as often as Rdm did.

    Traits are only "mainly for ____" until they're not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raiyara View Post
    Banish tho is something that WHM should have up to max tier as its the only real offensive spell whm has. As said before the last spell in that line WHM gets is at lvl65 yet mobs and npcs not only have the -aga 3 version but high tier use banish 4. Why WHM never got these like blm got tier 5 nukes is a mystery so far.
    While I don't necessarily think Whm would get less out of higher tier banishes than offhand clubs for more Macc, I see no reason not to give them both, it wouldn't break anything, and it would be fun, to use your words, neither of these things would harm anything, or even rebalance anything. (Again, you could put an attack speed penalty in for DW0, high as you like, to discourage people from meleeing with it without /Nin, if you like.)

    Its no harm for Whm to have max level spells anyhow and its one of those missing leftovers from the level cap raise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raiyara View Post
    Also Blm should have tier iv aga elemental spells as well.
    While at heart I really have no problem with this, considering Blm's position in the game at the moment, maybe wait for another time? But, honestly, it would probably be fine.
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  7. #27
    Player Jerbob's Avatar
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    Jeral
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    Phoenix
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    WHM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeldar View Post
    So you would say that by having the abilty to maybe land 1 enfeeble, that job has "enfeebling capabilities"? Well, in that case my thf is a freaking BEAST, because i can aspir with a ws, and do magic damage with others! That means I'm like a blm now too, right? Oh, and my WAR has healing capabilities if I strap on a sword and use sanguine blade! Having 1 enfeeble is far more than simply "limited" . Its an afterthought.
    That's exactly the point though! This is the counterargument to your assertion that WHM is a healing job, no more, and thus should not have access to non-healing traits. No job in FFXI is so narrowly defined as that - all jobs have tools that extend beyond their primary role. Your THF is not a "beast" magic DD with Aeolian Edge, but it has the capability and sometimes it's actually quite handy. You're not a BLM, but you don't have to be in order to deal magic damage in moderation. WHM with additional non-healing traits would be exactly the same. They're not meant to be beasts! It's meant to be fun, useful in niche situations, and something job enthusiasts can work on to get the most out of their favourite jobs. These off-role capabilities aren't something we can exclude just because WHM is a healer, or THF is a melee DD.

    However, if we were operating under the paradigm that jobs should only have capabilities precisely within their defined role, THF shouldn't have Aeolian Edge at all!
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  8. #28
    Player Zeldar's Avatar
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    Zeldar
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    Sylph
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    BLU Lv 99
    WHM IS a healing job: no more. If you want to have dual wield to have "fun", then sub a job that allows for this. And most jobs ARE so narrowly defined. BLM and DDs cant heal parties without the appropriate sub. Why? because they are not healing jobs. Some jobs are meant to be hybrids: RDM obviously, NIN was meant as an enfeebling DD, DNC is meant to be a support job. WHM was meant to heal. At least your argument for higher tier banishes has some sensible foundation. The arguements made on this forum to give WHM native DW are just ludacris. As for my post about thf, it was absolute sarcasm to show how idiotic it is to expect a whm to have nuking power or DW natively. I really can't believe people are lobbying for this. It just blows my mind.
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  9. #29
    Player Jerbob's Avatar
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    You're continuing to ignore the fact that I've repeatedly given examples (including your own example!) of jobs that have capabilities outside of their given role that aren't competitive with specialists, but still useful in low-intensity or niche situations - clear parallels to the suggestions being made in this thread for WHM.

    I guess we're not going to agree! But that's fine.
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  10. #30
    Player Zeldar's Avatar
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    Zeldar
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    My own example? What, a magical WS? All jobs have that. You have made a strong case for banishes, which I have already said. Anyone has yet to say how it would make any sense at all for a WHM to get native dual-wield! Dual-wield was given to the 3 additional jobs that ONLY equip 1-handed weapons and ONLY had the /nin and /dnc options. Outside of things like VW where a blu can sub pld and shield bash, and outside of leveling pre level 24, when has it EVER been better to wear 1 dagger or sword on BLU, THF, or DNC???? NEVER. It ade sense that these jobs got dual wield. There is no real situation where it makes sense for WHM to naturally be able to equip 2 weapons. WHM weapons are not for attacking. Dual-wield i a DD trait.
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