Dual Wield and Martial Arts

[Ulth]

With the addition of the new "gifts" I felt like this needs to be brought up again. Dual Wield and Martial Arts should not lower a weapons tp gain. This is starting to turn into a problem. With magic haste it gets too easy to overload on delay reducing abilities like dual wield. This causes the amount of tp per hit to go down, but not actually making you hit faster because you are already at the delay cap. With magic haste and the new 550 jp gift I would basically be punished on thf for having a good augment on my canny cape, (+4 dw, +3 cirt. damage) while using Taeon boots augmented for triple attack.

[machini]

I suspect you don't know how to do the math. On DNC, with the 550 Job Point Gift which brings native dual wield up to 35%, one would need just over 69% haste to hit attack speed cap. Assuming 25% of this from gear, that brings us down to 44% haste required to hit attack speed cap. Magic Haste caps at 43.75%, which means that you would either need Haste II/Geo-Haste plus a Victory March from a Bard with March +5, or an Advancing March from a Bard with March +5 to cap your attack speed.

What this does is allow you greater choice in what equipment and jobs you can use. If I have the 550 Job Point Gift, capped gear haste, and merited haste samba up that means I need 34 more haste to cap attack speed. Which means that instead of the GEO having to do Geo/Indi Haste, Haste 1 and a March from the BRD/WHM would cap my attack speed, which means that the GEO can instead do Indi/Geo Fury, which would increase damage.

There are countless other variations. Or you could outright drop a piece of dual wield gear -- you could drop the Patentia Sash from your build and add in a Windbuffet or Windbuffet +1, and increase your damage output.

So what this basically is is good for you, and good for me. Well, it's good for me, because I understand the math behind how it works so I can make my own gear builds. For you, and others who don't understand the math, but can only copy what they see others do, I guess it's bad.

[Ulth]

You suspect wrong. I know haste and dual wield are multiplicative bonuses. Ideally you want 36% dual wield, which lowers your delay to 64% which with capped magic and equipment haste 68.75% reduces delay to 20%, which is the cap. As for dropping a piece of dual wield equipment, you must not have actually paid attention to my example. Canny cape and Taeon boots are not just dual wield pieces. Canny cape has as much triple attack as bleating mantle only it also has accuracy and can be augmented for crit damage. Taeon boots can also be augmented for a lot of accuracy, attack, and get a good amount of triple attack. I used those pieces for accuracy and triple attack, those things they helps for when you are trying to build tp. However my canny cape which has +3% crit damage also has +4 dw. Taeon boots have +4 dw also. With the new gift and those pieces that would put my dw on thf at +38% which is over when I have capped magic haste. And really anytime when you would need to be focused on dealing damage fast you are going to have capped magic haste.

[Selindrile]

Machini, I regret to inform you that you are one of those people who do not currently understand the math behind the game, this page may help you: https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Attack_speed

But I'll copy paste a few things from there here for discussion.

Equipment haste has its own cap of 25% (256/1024).
Magic haste caps at 43.75% (448/1024).
Job abilitiy caps at 25% (256/1024).
In addition to this, there is a general 80% Delay reduction cap.

So Victory March +3 (14.1%) along with Haste 2 (30%) = 44.1% magic Haste, or overcapped, which is why most people cap magic haste with that alone.
Indi/Geo haste (with Dunna) is about 33% Haste, which will cap your magical haste with Haste (15%) alone (48% total) will also work, to clear up your examples, yes there are other ways to add up, but it's even easier than you seem to think, overall.

But this only accounts for magical haste, not the entirety of the formula:

Example: For 36 Dual Wield (DW3 Trait + 11DW from Gear), 26% Equipment Haste (1 over the 25% to make sure you're capped in case of partials), 43.75% Magic Haste from Haste, 0% Job Ability Haste:

(1 - 36% Dual Wield)×(1024 - 256 Equipment Haste - 448 Magic Haste - 0 Job Ability Haste)÷1024 = % Delay remaining
(.64) x (320) ÷1024 = % Delay remaining
.2 = 20% Delay Remaining, or exactly capped.

Therefore, if you exceed 11DW from gear on say Thf, with max magic haste, you're further reducing your TP gain, without increasing your attack speed, and it gets even easier to exceed if you had a Haste Samba in there somewhere, also Martial Arts is applied in another step similarly, but it's on the page.

[machini]

I don't think you even read what I posted.

[Selindrile]

I assure you I did, I think you just aren't understanding what I'm pointing out.

If I have the 550 Job Point Gift, capped gear haste, and merited haste samba up that means I need 34 more haste to cap attack speed.

Lets use your case:

Example: For 35 Dual Wield (DW4 Trait + 5DW from Gift), 26% Equipment Haste, 32.2% Magical Haste (17.2% From March2+5 and 15% Haste from Haste), 10% Job Ability Haste:

(1 - 35% Dual Wield)×(1024 - 256 Equipment Haste - 326 Magic Haste - 101 Job Ability Haste)÷1024 = % Delay remaining
(.65) x (341) ÷1024 = % Delay remaining
.216 = 21.6% Delay Remaining, or nearly capped.

So if you use almost any dual wield gear, ie: Taeon Boots, or the Dancer Mantle (and it's silly that you should not want to use these things, they'd be best in slot for tp WITHOUT the dual wield on them, which is making them worse in this situation, which is the whole of what we're pointing out), you will go over cap, and reduce your TP gained per hit without reducing your delay as much. Not to mention, 99% of players gear around having capped haste buffs, since it's simply March2+3 and Haste2, so if you were getting full haste for others' benefit, you could've had higher TP generation if you weren't being penalized by your dual wield.

[dasva]

Well if you start assuming decently undercapped magic haste then sure yeah more dw the better... the problem is those buffs are for the pt and chances are the other jobs are going to want capped magic haste or at least close to it. And even if they don't your buffer is probably going to go for it anyways. Heck they might even go higher I've known people to do double march with haste II lol