Classic server, what's the argument against it now?

[Alhanelem]

There were more people playing classic XI than there are currently playing XI now. Numbers don't lie, people preferred the older style of gameplay. Please provide evidence to the contrary, otherwise everything you say is just opinion/supposition.

Correlation does not imply causation. The reason we have fewer players now has very little to do with preferring the older style of gameplay. There are many, many factors at work.

You're right the numbers don't lie. The problem is your interpretation of those numbers is flawed at best.

The most obvious factor is simply the game is old. People move on. The fact that there are fewer players now than many years ago does not imply the game is now bad when it was good before (Even WoW is far off its peak population- Although it remains strong today because of solid marketing). People have myriad reasons for leaving.
Some people left because they didn't like game changes. I know some people who left because they didn't make game changes fast enough (if they don't fix this job soon, I quit; a friend once said to me).
Some people left simply because they got bored of the same old game, even in spite of new content and features, whether they were good or not.
Some people left because new games came out that captured their interest (and that doesn't mean the game got worse for them, just something piqued their interest and they ran with it).
Some people left because they just don't have time for the game anymore. People's lives change, they get jobs, interests change, etc.
Your logic is flawed, because it operates under the presumption that "the old game is better" is the only reason players may have left. For some people, that may be a reason. Ask anyone on the street today if they've played an MMO. If they answer yes, ask them if they've played FFXI or heard of it. Few people will answer yes, and if they've heard of it, its very probable they've heard of it because of FFXI characters in other games (Dissidia FF, Thetarythm FF)

Honestly, FFXI always had a relatively low new player retention rate, because the game is pretty brutal, even to a new player, and even today it still is, compared to other games on the market. They get frustrated and leave before they discover the good stuff. I introduced many players ot this game, even in its early days. Most did not make it past level 10 and most never got to see the epic storylines in this game. So FFXI's real problem to me has always been that it was hard for them to hang on to new players long enough for them to get them hooked.

[nekroturkey]

You're right the numbers don't lie. The problem is your interpretation of those numbers is flawed at best.

Not really. More people played classic XI than there are currently playing right now. That's pretty much indisputable.

The most obvious factor is simply the game is old.

Age means nothing, if an 11 year-old game like Warcraft is able to hit 10 million subscribers in 2014/2015. Being old won't inherently cause populations to dwindle.

Also referencing illegal applications that SE has been legaly trying to stop as the basis for why you want something isn't exactly a smart idea unless you are trying to get the thread lock...

What?

[Alhanelem]

Not really. More people played classic XI than there are currently playing right now. That's pretty much indisputable.

You're missing the point. Like I said. The numbers are right. Your interpretation of them is wrong. The *REASON* more people played then is not simply "classic FFXI is better than new FFXI". **ALL MMOs** (Even WoW) lose players over time. WoW is far off its peak subscriber base. That doesn't mean that the reason people left is solely because the game was better on XYZ date.

You pretty much didn't read anything I wrote, and that tells me you're trolling, and not willing to respect any viewpoint that isn't your own.

Age means nothing, if an 11 year-old game like Warcraft is able to hit 10 million subscribers in 2014/2015. Being old won't inherently cause populations to dwindle.

Warcraft's success is largely due to marketing. FFXI was barely marketed at all in the US. Marketing is what keeps bringing people back every time there's a new update. WoW keeps getting faster, and there's plenty of people who liked the game when it was older. But in spite of that, the game is still quite successful today. It does still have less players than when it was newer, just like FFXI has less players than when it was newer, however.

You argue that classic is better and that's why people are gone now, but people say the same thing in WoW. The reason WoW has more players is better marketing. I don't know how else to say it. If anything you response counters your own argument because FFXI has been making many gradual shifts in WoW's direction, and yet hasn't grown. Why hasn't it grown? because SE doesn't give a crap about marketing it. This is really the biggest reason FFXI did not build a millions-strong playerbase. It really could have done it, even if it had today's content years ago.

Your counterarguments are based on flawed comparisons, and not understanding of the true reasons. FFXI might be on life support now, but did you know that when the game was originally made, they didn't even plan for it to last half as long as it has? They thought the game was going to be dead 5 years ago or more. To me, the fact that it's still here, even with less players, speaks volumes about how good it is. Many online games come and go, and they thought this would be no different, but it was different.

[nekroturkey]

You pretty much didn't read anything I wrote, and that tells me you're trolling, and not willing to respect any viewpoint that isn't your own.

I already told you that I respect your opinion, but that's all you're giving me is your opinion. If you want to have an actual discussion, I'm going to need sources and numbers, which you haven't yet provided.

[Alhanelem]

I already told you that I respect your opinion, but that's all you're giving me is your opinion. If you want to have an actual discussion,

That's fine, but what you're giving is opinion as well. You seemed to insist that what you were saying was simply fact (and that was based on a misinterpretation of what I was saying).

I'm going to need sources and numbers, which you haven't yet provided.

Your sources and numbers don't prove anything. I'm not here to prove a fact. Although the information there is dated, you can see graphs of population data at mmocharts.com and probably other places, though. All MMOs eventually lose players off their peak. No game grows forever and that can easily be seen by looking at the stats for virtually any and all games on Steam, whether MMO, free to play, single player, or any other kind of game (feel free to look up and compare games on http://steamcharts.com/ ).

You say that the only (or biggest) reason why there are fewer players now is because the "classic" game ( we really don't have a clear definition of where the game was the most "classic") was better and people left purely because the game moved away from that. That is an opinion, not a fact. The fact is, as I explained in many more words in previous posts, that there are many reasons for people leaving the game. You responded "But WoW still has players!" However, WoW is off it's peak players as well. Not as far off, but there has still been a decline.

Here's the thing. I'm not disputing your assertion that "There are fewer players now than there were back in the day." I don't disagree with that. What I disagree with is your stated reason of WHY the numbers are the way they are. You have an opinion of that, and so do I. Our opinions are not in agreement, but they are both opinions. You say you respect mine, and I respect yours. So, it is probably best that we agree to disagree.

[nekroturkey]

That's fine, but what you're giving is opinion as well. You seemed to insist that what you were saying was simply fact (and that was based on a misinterpretation of what I was saying).

I'm not saying that I believe a classic server would be successful because it's what I want, but rather that a classic server would be successful, due to the success of classic/progression servers in other MMOs. My opinion isn't fact, but it's based on fact. The facts that I've provided (with sources) are the basis for my belief.

What we know for a fact:

• There were more people playing FFXI back then, than there are people playing FFXI now. You said that people are currently playing the game because they're happy with the way that it plays. I agree, people wouldn't pay to play a game that they don't enjoy. So by that same logic, there were more people back then that enjoyed the way the game used to play than there are people now that enjoy the way the game currently plays. Thus, more people prefer the classic mechanics to the current mechanics.
  
  
• Everquest, Lineage 2, and Darkfall Online recognize the potential of classic servers and the amount of players interested in them. Even Runescape has classic servers now. Project 1999 consistently has 1500+ players playing at any given time (that Daybreak/SOE have officially recognized) with an official Everquest progression server being released soon. Lineage 2 reached 15,000 signatures supporting a classic server, and Darkfall Online will be bringing back their original servers due to player demand. Even the developers of Darkfall believe that a classic server would be good for their current servers:
  
  http://i.imgur.com/BFBSxzT.png

[Alhanelem]

I'm not saying that I believe a classic server would be successful because it's what I want, but rather that a classic server would be successful, due to the success of classic/progression servers in other MMOs.

While I have no problem with you suggesting that there is a chance for this to be successful because other people succeeded, as I have stated before, other games having success with it is NOT a guarantee that it will work for this game. While you have cited that some games' developers have indicated player demand for such a feature, there has been no such data to indicate such a demand here. Other than this topic occasionally appearing here (and going away fairly quickly) with a couple people saying they like the idea, I've seen little to suggest that there is much demand for it in this game. I rarely see anyone talk about it in game, and there has not been very much discussion about it here. This thread has been mostly you and me arguing, with only a few others commenting in any way.

Thus, more people prefer the classic mechanics to the current mechanics.

This is a highly dubious statement, as you have no reliable statistics to back it up. SOME people do prefer one, and SOME people prefer another. We have no reliable data that says how many prefer each. We also have no reliable data that tells us the specific reason that people that are not currently playing have left. You seem to be under the impression that every person not currently playing the game is not playing it because they think the current game is inferior to the state of the game at some point in the past. As I have mentioned on multiple occasions and you seem to have ignored, there are many reasons for a player to leave the game that have little to do with their perception of the current state of the game vs the state of the game at some unspecified date in the past. I will once again list many of these reasons:

-Player can no longer afford to play / don't want to spend money on it anymore, independent of their like for the game
-Player lost interest through no fault of the game design but simply has had enough of the game
-Changes in life circumstances made it not possible for the player to keep playing
-Technical issues or other non-gameplay problems prevented them from playing and caused them to quit
-Player doesn't like how the game has changed over time (your stated reason)
-Player was socially ostracized (fairly uncommon but it does happen) leading them to quit
-Player was banned
-Player left game to join a game a friend was playing. This can independent of the player's personal happines with the game.
-Player couldn't figure the game out or didn't like the game and left before becoming a paying customer in the first place.

Your reason is one among many. You have no data that can tell us how many people left for what reason. There is also no data that can predict how many old players would return based purely on the addition of a classic server.

You can keep stating your facts about other studios making classic servers, but I will keep stating the fact that those companies doing so is in no way a guarantee that it would work for or be right for this game. But to play with your argument, I'd like to point out that WoW, a game you've cited on numerous occasions, does not have classic servers nor have I seen any indication they plan on making such a thing. If classic servers are so universally wonderful, one would expect that WoW would be doing this- after all, WoW has changed a lot since it launched, just as every MMO before and after it.

There are many reasons a player may leave the game, and there are many reasons they may or may not return. A classic server might help, or it might not. It's certainly possible, and the fact that some companies have succeeded with it indicates a possibility. It does not, however, guarantee that possibility. You are welcome to your opinion that it is more probable than not. I disagree, however I respect that opinion. You aren't going to sway me with the information you currently are offering, nor does it seem I will sway you with logic and theory. It is in our best interests to agree to disagree. That's what I'm going to do now, and I hope you will do the same.

[nekroturkey]

While I have no problem with you suggesting that there is a chance for this to be successful because other people succeeded, as I have stated before, other games having success with it is NOT a guarantee that it will work for this game.

Like you said, other players have made similar threads in the past. You even said yourself that creating a classic server would divide the population, meaning there are enough current players interested in a classic server to disrupt the populations on the main servers.

This is a highly dubious statement, as you have no reliable statistics to back it up. SOME people do prefer one, and SOME people prefer another. We have no reliable data that says how many prefer each.

We have enough data to determine that there were more people playing back then than there are people playing now. Now by your logic from earlier, which I agree with, people only pay to play games they enjoy. People are playing now because they enjoy the game now. People were playing then because they enjoyed the game then.

Now since there were more people playing back then than there are now, we can say with 100% certainty that more people would be interested in playing the game as it once was, rather than as it is now.

[bungiefanNA]

There were more people playing classic XI than there are currently playing XI now. Numbers don't lie, people preferred the older style of gameplay. Please provide evidence to the contrary, otherwise everything you say is just opinion/supposition.

There could be many reasons for why there were more players then. When the game launched in 2002, EQ was the most known MMO, and FFXI was based on its design. There weren't many other choices. Also, FFXI was the first MMORPG on a console, and had a big known brand name on it, so you got a huge influx of JP players on it right away. The name got it lots of attention when it released in English on PC as well. All MMORPGs back then had lots of grinding for everything, it was accepted design. WoW's release changed that, especially after an expansion or two, and people started copying that, removing grind in some places. Some MMO players are also short-term players to any single game, they keep jumping to new ones.

I started this game when I was 19. I'm now 32. I don't have the free time I did as a youth, and I wouldn't start a game like FFXI again now if it had the grind that the original game did. A lot of the veteran population is in a similar situation. I was single, not in college yet, and had low living expenses while working to save up for school, so I had many hours to play. Now I work a job with longer hours (including weeks where I am on-call 24/7), am married (a serious relationship is hard to have with an MMO that takes 8+ hours a day), and have living expenses I have to deal with. The people that were in the situation I was 13 years ago have many more choices, and antiquated design like FFXI is not going to appeal to them now. FFXI was like an iPhone back in 2006, before Android really came out in force. Choice was so few, you went with that option or not at all. Now you have the choice of hundreds of games, so the population is going to be spread across them more, and each game is going to get a thinner share.

[Isal]

Either you're going to argue that other MMO's successfully created classic servers, or you're going to argue "more people were playing back then, ergo, the game was better back then", but you can't have both without contradicting yourself.

I'm fairly certain that in any example you point to of an MMORPG that has a classic server, that one server is outnumbered by the normal servers, and its population is outnumbered by the combined population of the game's normal servers combined. In short, within the scope of just the MMORPG with the classic server, there are more people playing the game as it currently is than there are playing on the game's classic server.

If you're going to say that FFXI was better back then because more people were playing back then, then it suggests that these MMOs with classic servers are actually better games on their standard servers than on their classic servers, because more people are playing on the standard servers than the classic ones.