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  1. #51
    Player Stompa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluestar2kx View Post
    Whether you think that's the reason or not, I think it's pretty valid. Everything dies eventually, even the Ps2, the old systems are starting to die off as it is, so if you got a working one, keep it in pristine condition.

    It's no longer produced, or repaired by Sony (likely because the cost was sooo high for outdated tech to be made, costs start to go back up after a point in something's age), so when they die, their dead, and with Sony shutting down the dev networks (as it sounds like they used them) it's not going to be possible to make stuff, and so, FFXI's development beyond things based on stuff already in the game has to end. To remake the game would be astronomical in cost, might as well make FFXI-2, though we don't know they aren't, but I'm still hoping for FFXI server kits, so we can run our own with our friends, and get dungeon master controls ^^ That's all the "offline" we need.

    We're against F2P, because F2P is a terrible model for customers and company, and it would have no appreciable outcome on FFXI's future in the ways it needs.
    Why do you think things in those stores cost so bloody much? It's because they know half or more won't pay a thing for the game, and right now, paying customers is what FFXI needs, and it won't get that either way you slice it.

    So basically you have a bunch of freeloaders, on top of that, F2P draws the worst crowds of people, something FFXI has been able to keep away for 13 years, it's not something most of the veteran players want to deal with in FFXI's golden years, and it's not something that would benefit the game.

    It's not selfish, it's realistic, because we know what will happen.
    And it's not selfish to wish to keep paying for a game you love. It doesn't matter if it excludes others, because their the selfish ones who don't wish to pay and be able to play, they have a choice, but they want a free ride, and there's plenty of other MMO's that offer that path. I just got an email not too long ago that Blade and Soul is still being worked on and may release this year, there's another F2P game right there, if not at launch, it likely will shortly after given NCsofts reputation.

    So if gamers are just too cheap to pay FFXI's fairly reasonable sum to play such an amazing title that can hold you for a hundred times longer then most AAA titles released now for 60$, then, imo, they aren't worth playing with, and they aren't the group of people FFXI needs.

    People have shown again with FFXIV, that they will pay if its a good game even these days.
    So there you go. All the reason you need is right there.

    Personally, I'm happy paying for my access to FFXI. And I'll keep doing that until the day SE refuses that money, which will likely be when FFXI is gone forever, and I'm ok with that.... just not the end of ffxi ;; *cries* But thankfully, I think we still have some years left before that's a threat.
    Great analysis of the situation on the ground, and probably the best post I've read on this forum ever.

    You are so right about the potential revenue benefits of Ftp in this game being scant and transient, the real money input for this type of niche fan game comes from loyal longtime subscribers who actually enjoy playing the game for the game itself, and not just people going on a brief shopping spree and then drifting away a short time later. Its like the difference between having a constant tapwater supply, or going to the shop for the occasional bottle of water. Even if the tapwater slows to a trickle, it is still a more efficient system than constantly going to buy new bottles of water at the shop.
    (4)

  2. #52
    Player Castanica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluestar2kx View Post
    Whether you think that's the reason or not, I think it's pretty valid. Everything dies eventually, even the Ps2, the old systems are starting to die off as it is, so if you got a working one, keep it in pristine condition.

    It's no longer produced, or repaired by Sony (likely because the cost was sooo high for outdated tech to be made, costs start to go back up after a point in something's age), so when they die, their dead, and with Sony shutting down the dev networks (as it sounds like they used them) it's not going to be possible to make stuff, and so, FFXI's development beyond things based on stuff already in the game has to end. To remake the game would be astronomical in cost, might as well make FFXI-2, though we don't know they aren't, but I'm still hoping for FFXI server kits, so we can run our own with our friends, and get dungeon master controls ^^ That's all the "offline" we need.

    We're against F2P, because F2P is a terrible model for customers and company, and it would have no appreciable outcome on FFXI's future in the ways it needs.
    Why do you think things in those stores cost so bloody much? It's because they know half or more won't pay a thing for the game, and right now, paying customers is what FFXI needs, and it won't get that either way you slice it.

    So basically you have a bunch of freeloaders, on top of that, F2P draws the worst crowds of people, something FFXI has been able to keep away for 13 years, it's not something most of the veteran players want to deal with in FFXI's golden years, and it's not something that would benefit the game.

    It's not selfish, it's realistic, because we know what will happen.
    And it's not selfish to wish to keep paying for a game you love. It doesn't matter if it excludes others, because their the selfish ones who don't wish to pay and be able to play, they have a choice, but they want a free ride, and there's plenty of other MMO's that offer that path. I just got an email not too long ago that Blade and Soul is still being worked on and may release this year, there's another F2P game right there, if not at launch, it likely will shortly after given NCsofts reputation.

    So if gamers are just too cheap to pay FFXI's fairly reasonable sum to play such an amazing title that can hold you for a hundred times longer then most AAA titles released now for 60$, then, imo, they aren't worth playing with, and they aren't the group of people FFXI needs.

    People have shown again with FFXIV, that they will pay if its a good game even these days.
    So there you go. All the reason you need is right there.

    Personally, I'm happy paying for my access to FFXI. And I'll keep doing that until the day SE refuses that money, which will likely be when FFXI is gone forever, and I'm ok with that.... just not the end of ffxi ;; *cries* But thankfully, I think we still have some years left before that's a threat.
    So you would rather see a game die than go f2p? I don't think you really play it very much if you think that, there is nothing like ffxi that exists. Once FFXI closes this kind of mmo will be gone for good, FFXIV is a pure wow copy so swapping to that isn't an option for most of us. FFXI and FFXIV are like chalk and cheese, nothing alike.

    Talking of FFXIV, FFXIV proves that a pure p2p cannot function. FFXIV has a very big cash shop, you can't even have a good wedding on FFXIV without spending $40.

    As I mentioned before, f2p isn't a terrible business model at all, there are many great f2p models out there. The deal with f2p is that you pay for items instead of pay to access the game. You still pay money.

    The most terrible thing you said was that you think you're better than "free loaders" I have news for you, you aren't any better than anyone else. F2p players aren't the great unclean, they are just the same as the rest of us. do you walk around during free access fortnights turning your nose up at people that may not be subbed?

    At the end of the day your only real argument against f2p is that you don't want people you see as beneath you playing. This appears a common reason for most people who dislike f2p, which is pretty shocking.

    Just to prove that this master race idea you seen to have is incorrect, the worst community I have so far experienced has been on FFXIV. I played Tera, SWTOR, STO and ESO and all of them had/have better communities. None of them were as good as ffxi, that however had nothing to do with the sub.
    (0)
    Last edited by Castanica; 06-01-2015 at 12:41 AM.

  3. #53
    Player vienne's Avatar
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    6 pages of the same old, yet your idea only has 1 like....yet you continue to insult the people who give valid arguments.
    Let me ask this: if ffxi went f2p with a cashshop, what would that shop be selling? Look at it from the point of view of both sides.
    cosmetics? i can see this work for both new and older players, people have been asking for paid name/race/appearance changes for a long time.
    Gear? well...as a loyal subscriber i have a big problem with this, gear doesnt come falling down the sky (also what would this do to the auction house/market)
    currency? thats a big nono, then anyone can make a relic/mythic with no effort (and yes thats the coredesign of ffxi, effort, the grind. take that out of the game and whats left?
    furniture/costumes? this could work for both sides but who wants to pay rl money for this?
    progress? again not acceptable for the paying sub, and unneccesary since most requirements are neglectable as it is, its not that hard anymore for newer players.
    gil? Well tbh i could see an EVE like approach work, with having the ability to pay for game time with game currency and it actually being possible to do so if you know what you're doing.

    I'll also point out the age of ffxi, its 13 years old, i doubt its that simple to change this dinosaur into f2p. And secondly Camate and Grukumah (or w/e his name is sorry!) answered a whole bunch of forum questions earlier this week, yet they once more ignored every f2p~ish topic.
    And last but not least. I'm very much ok for paying a sub for a game that keeps me entertained and which makes sure i dont have the need to buy a new game every month, in that way a sub based game is cheap.
    (1)
    "I drink it when I'm happy and when I'm sad. Sometimes I drink it when I'm alone. When I have company I consider it obligatory. I trifle with it if I'm not hungry and I drink it when I am. Otherwise I never touch it, unless I'm thirsty."

  4. #54
    Player Bluestar2kx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castanica View Post
    So you would rather see a game die than go f2p? I don't think you really play it very much if you think that, there is nothing like ffxi that exists. Once FFXI closes this kind of mmo will be gone for good, FFXIV is a pure wow copy so swapping to that isn't an option for most of us. FFXI and FFXIV are like chalk and cheese, nothing alike.

    Talking of FFXIV, FFXIV proves that a pure p2p cannot function. FFXIV has a very big cash shop, you can't even have a good wedding on FFXIV without spending $40.

    As I mentioned before, f2p isn't a terrible business model at all, there are many great f2p models out there. The deal with f2p is that you pay for items instead of pay to access the game. You still pay money.

    The most terrible thing you said was that you think you're better than "free loaders" I have news for you, you aren't any better than anyone else. F2p players aren't the great unclean, they are just the same as the rest of us. do you walk around during free access fortnights turning your nose up at people that may not be subbed?

    At the end of the day your only real argument against f2p is that you don't want people you see as beneath you playing. This appears a common reason for most people who dislike f2p, which is pretty shocking.

    Just to prove that this master race idea you seen to have is incorrect, the worst community I have so far experienced has been on FFXIV. I played Tera, SWTOR, STO and ESO and all of them had/have better communities. None of them were as good as ffxi, that however had nothing to do with the sub.
    The game's official servers are going to die someday, even the loyal fanbase won't keep this from happening at some point. This is inevitable, as it is with all things. Nothing lasts forever.
    It's not a truth anybody, or me, likes to face, but we know this for fact.

    But going F2P will kill it long before SE would cut the servers as things are going now.
    What you don't seem to understand is F2P models are exactly as i said, players play free yes you can login without a sub, however, maybe a 1/3rd to a 1/4th of those players will actually ever buy anything, and typically the people who do, are the loyal players much like those still paying for FFXI, they pay to make up for the bulk of people who don't, as I said, that's why those items in game stores like Aion, SWTOR, and such are a lot more expensive then they typically should be. It isn't just corporate greed, it's a matter of necessity.

    Tell me, the game goes F2P, SE opens up a small cash for with items starting at 5$+, a 1/3rd of the server, mostly those playing right now, would pay anything, which is about 600 people on average, but the server gets flooded (we'll go with best case) and rockets up to the old days of 3-4k per server, but we only have 11 now instead of 24, and the dev team is cut to a 1/5th of what we had back then.... who's going to handle maintenance for such an influx of people with such a small team? How is SE going to keep them after november?

    People have already said they refuse to pay after that date, so what's going to happen to SE's income? It stays right where it is now, worse case, it drops more as people leave.
    So tell me again, how F2P is going to benefit FFXI?

    It's not, and that is 90% of the reason why the people of this game are objecting to it, and I'd wager, a lot of why SE does too, because they realize that very truth: It will change nothing for the better, and it might cause worse problems for FFXI.

    Just because something is common in the rest of the industry, mostly full of failing MMO's (why did they all go F2P after all?), doesn't mean it's a great method. Day 1 DLC is exceptionally common, but everyone hates it, does that make it cool just because the main houses do it?

    I play FFXI daily hun, but thanks for judging.
    I have over 600 days accumulated between my characters (I've had 6 independant characters since nov 3rd 2003), I've taken over 30,000 photos in FFXI, and run two accounts concurrently that pay SE over 30$, even my partner has been tempted to open a 2nd of her own. I cried my eyes out so hard when I read the news of FFXI shutting down that my partner thought my grandmother died and rushed to call me between breaks after I left a sobbing message she couldn't understand. FFXI means more to me then what half the players here probably feel (just estimating, no offence intended).

    I know FFXI pretty well, from back then, to today it means a lot to me, I've done most things in the game at least once, though i frequent older content more then the newer stuff. I also know that it's one of the last titles like it. When it gone, when EQ is gone, it's the end of an era essentially, an era we'll likely never see again. It's the same reason classics from the NES era and even older arcade titles are STILL loved and played, esp by older audiences. And for me, it will likely mean the end of MMO's for me because of that. Though some Korean MMO's aren't bad, but still not the same. though I'd be willing to pay a LOT to get access to a FFXI server kit if SE sold one.

    But I know what F2P would do to it. I've seen it happen in several other games. Most notably Aion which I played for 3 years AS it went F2P. (difference being, Aion did it young, and was able to support such a shop natively because of it's design... or lack of. Costs a ton though, server counts did go up for a time, but are still dwindling long after)

    I'd rather pay my sub, and get updates with wonderful content and stories, and support the game properly and completely and ensure it's survival for as long as possible, then pay 3-5x as much to get those same items from a cash shop with meager quests and updates, as I watch FFXI burn to the ground from a mass of freeloaders who care nothing for it and abandon it anyway in 5 months, killing the game. It would be dead faster then if Fenrir ate Karaha-Baruha at his summoning.

    The outcome, is the same, but one, kills it sooner then it should.
    (I think I've already explained quite well which one that is)

    But yes I know FFXIV is not the title most of us would go to.
    It's not one i favored either. It's beautiful, but that's as far as it gets. They killed what could have been from 1.0, and replaced it with a WoW mechanics copy. A fairly good copy, but still.

    I guess I didn't play it enough, I didn't know FFXIV had much of a cash shop really. I knew you could buy server transfers and a look change potion but beyond that, I didn't know it had anything else to sell. But P2P does function just fine, that FFXI still lives, and XIV is still a sub only title, speaks for itself when other titles ages older then XI went F2P (though most have a payment option). Whether XIV will go F2P in the future I don't know. I doubt it. They burned money making XIV, and again, remaking XIV. The cash shop is likely just a supplement to what FFXI fans demand that they can't give us, and to help offset the absurdly high expenses XIV incurred. Hell, they gave people free play time for almost a year, that takes money to run the staff and servers, so they essentially bleed more, it makes sense they'd attempt to recoup costs.

    F2P isn't terrible if you're too broke to pay for it originally. Otherwise, I don't know a single F2P model that's been good for consumers AND the game. There's a difference there. But I've already explained F2P models well enough.

    Maybe I am biased against those players and have a bad attitude towards them, but I've seen enough to know what F2P does and doesn't do and typically that group, has a lot filthier mouths then most of the rest of us, and they don't respect people. However, I treat players with respect until it's shown they don't deserve it. But maybe I do need to change my opinion slightly. I'll not judge the attitudes of freeloaders in the future until they show theirs, but you can't honestly say they aren't a freeloader, esp against those still willing to pay for access rights, which seems to be at least 3/4th's of the current community. 14$ average by a player every month is a lot more solid income then maybe 15$ from a few items on a shop by a couple of people, that half the server might buy on a given month.

    As Stompa said, a small stream of income is still income, and it beats a small gush here and there with nothing inbetween because that stream adds up quickly.
    (trust me they do >< We had a steady stream leak from a sink in my old home we rented, it added up to a gallon every 30 mins, the owner refused to fix it, we left with a 300$ water bill, when it normally barely exceeded 35$)

    But it does nothing good for the game's community. Tell me one F2P mmo with a great community? Sure, they maybe nice, sometimes, but are they close? Are they helpful? FFXI had that in it's heyday, but I've not played an MMO with that since. Let's not even get into the crap I've seen in shout channels in Aion, and STO, the attitudes can be vile, which i've very rarely seen in FFXI. Most of the players enticed by F2P are the CoD type crowd, and most of them aren't pleasant people, nor are they people who work well with others, there's a reason people talk upon XBL's community, and that is why, that is the people we'd get because they're the only players left who've not played FFXI.

    The real problem is, MMO's are dying as a whole.
    Copies of too easy games, poor quality, there's a host of problems. Hell you could write a lot of that for the AAA industry.
    But I could write a document on this, but I don't have the desire to rewrite it again, I think I wrote it in the last classic server request thread, you can find it there in some of the later pages I think it was.

    My reasons for disliking F2P have actually little to do with the poor attitude of players it would likely entice to come for a short time, that is just a known side effect. The real problem is, F2P would give nothing to FFXI, but it would sure take a lot of things away.

    Whether you accept this or not changes little of it being fact.
    A fact most of the playerbase knows, and a fact SE knows. That's the real argument, that's why it's not happening and that's why we're against it. It would accomplish nothing in the end, and would kill FFXI by next year for sure.

    Is that what you really want?
    You claim I must not play or want FFXI to keep going, but you keep advocating strongly for a method of play that you clearly don't understand the function of in such an old title like this, and one that would kill it a lot faster then anything I'm supporting.
    (1)
    Last edited by Bluestar2kx; 06-01-2015 at 02:28 AM.

  5. #55
    Player detlef's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castanica View Post
    So you would rather see a game die than go f2p?
    F2P sounds like a great deal for players but how exactly is it going to make more money for SE than paid subscriptions?
    (2)

  6. #56
    Player Castanica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluestar2kx View Post
    quoted text
    I don't get this thinking, sure it's going to die. You, I and everyone reading this is gonna die so what does that have to do with it? If you can do something to put it off you do it.

    Square have given up on FFXI, now they are letting it die. The only thing that would change that is more money, f2p/hybrid has saved mass numbers of games (including everquest 1).

    This is ofc just a discussion, I have since read that Square actually considered f2p for ffxi before deciding to end it instead. They didn't want to spend the money needed to create a delivery system and shop.
    (0)

  7. #57
    Player Dreamin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castanica View Post
    I don't get this thinking, sure it's going to die. You, I and everyone reading this is gonna die so what does that have to do with it? If you can do something to put it off you do it.

    Square have given up on FFXI, now they are letting it die. The only thing that would change that is more money, f2p/hybrid has saved mass numbers of games (including everquest 1).

    This is ofc just a discussion, I have since read that Square actually considered f2p for ffxi before deciding to end it instead. They didn't want to spend the money needed to create a delivery system and shop.
    Seems you and every one of you guys out there that somehow thinks just by changing this game to F2P, SE will somehow pick up development once again. Maybe you didn't read it correctly, but they are claiming that they can no longer continue to develop this game because the primary core development platform is on the PS2 and SE can no longer acquire 'new dev kits' for PS2. The effort to port a 13 years old game from PS2 to say PC (or PS4/Xbox with the PC being probably the better choice) is probably not going to be justified by going the F2P model at all.

    So stop this nonsense because even if this game gets to be F2P, it'll still be dying because there will be no MAJOR development done on this game. That is the reality that every one of you that doesn't seems to understands.
    (1)

  8. #58
    Player Stompa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castanica View Post
    Square have given up on FFXI, now they are letting it die.
    For a game they've given up on and are letting die, they sure are putting a lot of love into the new content this year. Some of the CS in the part one RoV mini episodes, are some of the best CS I have seen in this game ever. The script-writing for NPC dialogues in those new CS are extremely well-written, better than anything I've read in recent Fighting-Fantasy genre novels. Even the scriptwriting for minor details like Trust battle-comments has clearly been written by people who love FFXI, not by people who have given up on it and are letting it die. RoV promises to be an awesome storyline, I am thrilled to my boots about seeing what happens in RoV, and reading more of the wonderful scriptwriting that goes into the beautiful CSs.

    If they had given up on it and were letting it die, they wouldn't be putting all this effort into Trusts, or into new furnishings like the simply outstanding VanaClock etc. or into the final mission storyline. We have only seen the baby-steps RoV intro, but I believe this will be a storyline of soaring wonder, and lasting memories.

    If they just gave up and ditched it they would say "we can't afford it, we had a good run guys, we are shutting down on <date>" but they haven't done that, they keep adding QOL and adding more immersive Rpg elements into Trusts and Moghouses etc. as well as the epic finale RoV.

    And they did say the core game will still be available for as long as possible, as long as players are paying subs and the equipment works etc. They actually said [paraphrased] "we hope to keep Vanadiel online for a long time after updates cease, so that fans and new players alike can continue to enjoy it." They don't want to kill this game or let it die, they are just scaling-back by stopping updates/expansions next year. I see this withdrawing as similar to Bivalvia where the shell is closed defensively, the shell organism isn't being destroyed, it is just closing into a defensive stance for survival.
    (3)

  9. #59
    Player Bluestar2kx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castanica View Post
    I don't get this thinking, sure it's going to die. You, I and everyone reading this is gonna die so what does that have to do with it? If you can do something to put it off you do it.

    Square have given up on FFXI, now they are letting it die. The only thing that would change that is more money, f2p/hybrid has saved mass numbers of games (including everquest 1).

    This is ofc just a discussion, I have since read that Square actually considered f2p for ffxi before deciding to end it instead. They didn't want to spend the money needed to create a delivery system and shop.
    It was more a matter of statement then an obsession with the end.
    But it is not something we can "put off". Primary development is ending. Unless SE gets a fund from someone in the amount of like, 35-50m$ to write the core of the game into a PC dev kit to keep it going that way, this won't change. And this has large ramifications to the game's long term future.

    SE hasn't "given up" on FFXI. But they know, as most of us do, there's no income to be gained from FFXI beyond what they're getting now. Things might fluctuate slightly as players come and go for updates, or RoV, but that's it and it won't be by any significant amount. A f2P shop is not going to do anything, if anything, it would reduce income because (take notes this time please as you keep ignoring it):

    1: it would take a lot of dev time to even make a shop, and put items into it, this shop having new items would have a limited life span of 5 remaining months, this would also take away from content being designed and added to FFXI before november.
    And 2: there isn't enough money in the cash shop design to fund FFXI, income would decrease over the sub rate because there's just not enough players left, F2P models require large amounts of players because only like a 1/4th will buy anything at any given time, so SE would lose more money, and FFXI would go offline sooner because there wouldn't be enough income. (And I wouldn't say F2P saves games. It just, slows their death.)

    Even if SE did a mix of shop+sub, it would still give us problem number 1: Taking time away from FFXI's main development, and money being used to keep it going. Money that may not be able to be put back, and dev time that can't be recovered, plus, the shops development would die in 5 months, taking income with it, income that was drained from FFXI's funding pool that may not have been put back.

    F2P has saved dozens of games because it brings in large numbers of players for a title just a few years old and a portion of them buy something, not a game that most people have played and gotten bored with and left. Further more, there's one extra problem: A lot of people refusing to play FFXI don't play not because it has a sub (tho that is part) but the main reason is it's dated graphics. So who would F2P entice to play that would generate enough revenue to get SE to fund porting the development platform to PC from the PS2?

    f2P will not bring in tons of money for FFXI. That's part of why SE chose not to do it.
    There's no money to be made in FFXI with a cash shop like that and removing subs, even with subs, there isn't going to be enough income to give us the time we need for FFXI to change SE's mind.
    (3)

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